well in the last Twitter exodus when people came to Mastodon, they didn't like how they were treated. Telling them to use CWs, telling them there are instances other than m.s, and decided we were toxic.
As well as a few other things that are probably valid. Like I think some instances are probably heavy-handed when it comes to blocking other instances.
I was complaining in my previous toot, but I guess people are just gonna use what they like. Apparently Mastodon isn't most peoples' cup of tea and that's okay.
Given that Mastodon was viewed as the primary Twitter alternative back in 2022 when people first started fleeing Elon, this should spur some serious reflection within the Mastodon community. Mostly I've seen discussion that takes the form of blaming the users (which doesn't seem likely to improve the situation).
@internic We're old enough to remember the "keep Fedi weird," "they're changing the culture," and colonizers complaints as tons of people fled from the birdsite to give this place a try.
That was a great way to chase people off this platform and ensure they never came back. Now people are surprised that people are migrating elsewhere?
Yes, lots of people tried to welcome others and it was nice, but there was a huge culture clash. All that has been forgotten in the complaints.
Also at this time bsky was on only-invite mode. Most of the people who are migrating there now don't know yet, that bsky will end like shitter.
First of all, I'm glad that people are leaving shitter. Today I saw for the first time in a YouTube video that someone quoted from bsky instead of shitter.
Every now and then I advertise the Fediverse in the comments and try to point out that bsky will become just like shitter.
@catflyhigh @internic Hopefully getting people off the dead birdsite and to Bluesky will give the Fediverse time to sort out some of the issues that drove people away. Will that be through Mastodon or another micro-blogging platform has yet to be seen.
It's not like some people aren't worried about when that VC money starts to demand things-- it's just getting away from the Musk hellhole for now. A lot people on BS know that the Fediverse has the most potential in the long run.
I’m surprised that while my Bluesky account has grown by 8000 followers — DOUBLED to 16k+ — in just the last week since the election, my Mastodon count hasn’t changed at all.
@mekkaokereke I'm on Bluesky, and of the three (Twitter, Mastodon) it's my least favourite. It has one advantage over Mastodon (it's easier to get started and doesn't require federating your brain) and all the other drawbacks (low engagement, difficulty making friends).
Worst is that their search function privileges monologuers, making it hard to even find real people. I'm not interested in users who have 50,000 followers and are following 3.
Intend to keep adding them if they are popular and also encourage others to do roll their own: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
The design of these things is basically to get around the limitations of Mastodon, and still offer the capability to load chunks of topical accounts...
Intend to keep adding them if they are popular and also encourage others to do roll their own: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
The design of these things is basically to get around the limitations of Mastodon, and still offer the capability to load chunks of topical accounts...
You may have been hearing a lot about Bluesky's popular 'Starter Packs' lately. BS users can create lists of accounts that others can follow with one-click.
Well, we don't have this capability. We often share lists of account recommendations, but there is no one-click thing. There is a way though to follow entire lists of accounts. Not quite as convenient, but you can import lists of accounts, and you can import them directly into lists.
@mekkaokereke @RustyRing Admittedly fiddly, but one of the really nice things about these is that they import directly into a list. Not sure if Bluesky has this capability, but actually for organizing your follows it is great!
Very interested in getting feedback from the community and coordinating with others to generate and promote Follow Pack lists.
Understand that it would be better to have these things integrated into the UI, but it is what we can do now. 🤷
@mekkaokereke @RustyRing Have you any thoughts on the discussions concerning the ownership of Bluesky and the risks associated with setting up shop in another corporate garden? Particularly one with it's founding history and recent investment by Blockchain Capital?
Definitely understand the concerns about Mastodon, but would say that it is worth working together to improve because it has the one thing corporate platforms will never have, it's defensible.
@mastodonmigration @RustyRing Yes, but I have concerns about Mastodon too. Most of the instance owners on Mastodon do not create a safe space for Black people. Many of the rest don't even notice the distinct lack of Black people. Only the most stubborn Black folk stay here. 🙋🏿♂️
Mastodon expects Black people to come here and face death threats and abuse while Mastodon gets it together. For most Black users, especially Black women, the answer is "LOL! Absolutely not. BFFR."
@mastodonmigration @RustyRing Again, many of the people on Mastodon have a hard time empathizing with a Black user on Twitter.
The "BlueSky might go bad one day!" Is a future hypothetical. But "Mastodon is not great for Black folks" is real today.
Why would a Black woman choose to come here when BlueSky meets her needs? To come here where people that advocate for her safety are attacked and abused, very few other Black women are here, and she gets told to CW everything she posts?
I agree that the situation you describe is untenable. Thank you for making me aware of it. Sounds like a classic tail-chase: I haven't witnessed this behaviour because I don't see many Black people here. Why don't I see Black people here? Because of this behaviour.
You haven't witnessed the racist and abusive behaviour because, currently, Mastodon users cannot see all the replies of any given post, due to the way Mastodon works.
A solution has been implemented on our instance, and I can now see all replies to a post if I want and it makes a huge difference! I can see the spam, the nasty posts, and the well-intentioned users just repeating the same thing over and over again because they can't see that someone else already said it.
Original PR Here: NeuromatchAcademy#44
Further description here: NeuromatchAcademy#43
I've never made a PR for upstream before, so forgive me if i'm doing it wrong <3
Problem
Currently, ...
@elduvelle @RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration Thank you all for a very informative thread. As just a “usual user” who came here a few months ago I see a challenge with usability. Not seeing all replies on post means I do not see all bad posts and can’t react against them.
Also, Mastodon lack some basic functionality that I feel is important to be able to discuss topics
Original PR Here: NeuromatchAcademy#44
Further description here: NeuromatchAcademy#43
I've never made a PR for upstream before, so forgive me if i'm doing it wrong <3
Problem
Currently, ...
@elduvelle All of this is true, but there is a caveat: abusive replies (the really bad, intentional kind) are often posted with "followers only" visibility, meaning even with "fetch all replies", still only the harasser, their friends, and the harassed person can see the reply. Even the mods might not see it until it's reported.
My stance is that "followers only" replies make no non-abusive sense and need to be filtered by default.
@elduvelle I'm on a single-user instance so I don't know what the typical moderator experience is like. I'm curious: when admins/mods look at a local thread, can they see "followers only" replies that they are not explicitly tagged in? I guess in general they would not be visible, but it would make sense for the purpose of moderation if admins could always see all replies to people on their server, including non-public ones.
@julian admins cannot see the followers-only posts if they are not themselves a follower, AFAIK. So those kind of posts would still have the potential to go unmoderated, I'm not sure what would be a good solution for this. cc @jonny in case they know better..
it is not now, but it should be possible to refuse to accept replies with a flexible set of composable filters that include things like "no posts with visibility x from group y"
@elduvelle @jonny Ideally this would be tackled through changes in the Mastodon code, to always show non-public replies to public posts to moderators viewing the thread so proactive moderation is possible. Probably not an easy code change would be my guess. 🫤 Plus there'd be implications on people's privacy expectations to discuss, since this lightly brushes against "admins can read your DMs" discourse.
@julian @elduvelle idk i don't necessarily think that giving moderators privilege to view things that wouldn't be obvious to people is a great idea, but it should be possible to just filter those kinds of replies in the first place if people don't want to get them.
Oh wow that's indeed an awesome PR. I hope it'll be able to be merged - I think the only concern might be the increased levels of traffic it'll create.
Otoh, I think we (instance owners) must accept that traffic for the fediverse to "work".
Even this one simple addition would be a billion times better!
Mastodon won't add this because the BDFL Eugen Rochko won't think it's useful and if anybody does add it, it will take him 5 years to make an exact replica of the code himself and pretend it was his idea. There are better forks and, frankly, better projects out there. So do you know what forks are adding this? Like I told others, Mastodon ain't where it will be at, but a project like GoToSocial, actually! Is this something instances hosted on things like Mastohost do? Would love to add this to my instance, or at least tell others how to do it. In the meantime, trying to get vinella Mastodon to do *anything* will be an uphill battle so go to other projects in the Fediverse. @elduvelle @RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james
Sunbeam Borb 🌻:pirate_flag:
in reply to James Endres Howell • • •well in the last Twitter exodus when people came to Mastodon, they didn't like how they were treated. Telling them to use CWs, telling them there are instances other than m.s, and decided we were toxic.
As well as a few other things that are probably valid. Like I think some instances are probably heavy-handed when it comes to blocking other instances.
I was complaining in my previous toot, but I guess people are just gonna use what they like. Apparently Mastodon isn't most peoples' cup of tea and that's okay.
Damage Control Blog
in reply to Sunbeam Borb 🌻:pirate_flag: • • •Nick
in reply to James Endres Howell • • •Damage Control Blog
in reply to Nick • • •@internic We're old enough to remember the "keep Fedi weird," "they're changing the culture," and colonizers complaints as tons of people fled from the birdsite to give this place a try.
That was a great way to chase people off this platform and ensure they never came back. Now people are surprised that people are migrating elsewhere?
Yes, lots of people tried to welcome others and it was nice, but there was a huge culture clash. All that has been forgotten in the complaints.
catflyhigh
in reply to Damage Control Blog • • •Also at this time bsky was on only-invite mode.
Most of the people who are migrating there now don't know yet, that bsky will end like shitter.
First of all, I'm glad that people are leaving shitter. Today I saw for the first time in a YouTube video that someone quoted from bsky instead of shitter.
Every now and then I advertise the Fediverse in the comments and try to point out that bsky will become just like shitter.
Damage Control Blog
in reply to catflyhigh • • •@catflyhigh @internic Hopefully getting people off the dead birdsite and to Bluesky will give the Fediverse time to sort out some of the issues that drove people away. Will that be through Mastodon or another micro-blogging platform has yet to be seen.
It's not like some people aren't worried about when that VC money starts to demand things-- it's just getting away from the Musk hellhole for now. A lot people on BS know that the Fediverse has the most potential in the long run.
mekka okereke :verified:
in reply to James Endres Howell • • •It's not that baffling.
1. Good user experience, fundamentally requires above all else, empathy for the user.
2. A lot of the Mastodon community, lacks this basic empathy for these users.
hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/113…
There's not much attempt made to understand why users are choosing BlueSky, and what Mastodon could change to have them choose Mastodon.
Instead, there's fierce resistance to change, and disdain directed at users for even wanting some of these basic improvements.🤷🏿♂️
It's not that baffling.
1. Good user experience, fundamentally requires above all else, empathy for the user.
2. A lot of the Mastodon community, lacks this basic empathy for these users.
hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/113…
There's not much attempt made to understand why users are choosing BlueSky, and what Mastodon could change to have them choose Mastodon.
Instead, there's fierce resistance to change, and disdain directed at users for even wanting some of these basic improvements.🤷🏿♂️
mekka okereke :verified:
2024-11-14 09:04:43
RustyRing
in reply to mekka okereke :verified: • • •@mekkaokereke
I'm on Bluesky, and of the three (Twitter, Mastodon) it's my least favourite. It has one advantage over Mastodon (it's easier to get started and doesn't require federating your brain) and all the other drawbacks (low engagement, difficulty making friends).
Worst is that their search function privileges monologuers, making it hard to even find real people. I'm not interested in users who have 50,000 followers and are following 3.
mekka okereke :verified:
in reply to RustyRing • • •@RustyRing
That's very fair.
Would you be opposed to Mastodon launching features that make it easier for new users to get started?
Specifically, something like starter packs?
Mastodon Migration
in reply to mekka okereke :verified: • • •@mekkaokereke @RustyRing
You might be interested in this "Follow Pack" effort: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
Currently there are five "Follow Packs": mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
Intend to keep adding them if they are popular and also encourage others to do roll their own: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
The design of these things is basically to get around the limitations of Mastodon, and still offer the capability to load chunks of topical accounts...
1/n
... Show more...@mekkaokereke @RustyRing
You might be interested in this "Follow Pack" effort: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
Currently there are five "Follow Packs": mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
Intend to keep adding them if they are popular and also encourage others to do roll their own: mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
The design of these things is basically to get around the limitations of Mastodon, and still offer the capability to load chunks of topical accounts...
1/n
Mastodon Migration
2024-11-16 14:07:43
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mekkaokereke @RustyRing
Admittedly fiddly, but one of the really nice things about these is that they import directly into a list. Not sure if Bluesky has this capability, but actually for organizing your follows it is great!
Very interested in getting feedback from the community and coordinating with others to generate and promote Follow Pack lists.
Understand that it would be better to have these things integrated into the UI, but it is what we can do now. 🤷
2/n
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mekkaokereke @RustyRing
Have you any thoughts on the discussions concerning the ownership of Bluesky and the risks associated with setting up shop in another corporate garden? Particularly one with it's founding history and recent investment by Blockchain Capital?
Definitely understand the concerns about Mastodon, but would say that it is worth working together to improve because it has the one thing corporate platforms will never have, it's defensible.
mekka okereke :verified:
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mastodonmigration @RustyRing
Yes, but I have concerns about Mastodon too. Most of the instance owners on Mastodon do not create a safe space for Black people. Many of the rest don't even notice the distinct lack of Black people. Only the most stubborn Black folk stay here. 🙋🏿♂️
Mastodon expects Black people to come here and face death threats and abuse while Mastodon gets it together. For most Black users, especially Black women, the answer is "LOL! Absolutely not. BFFR."
1/N
mekka okereke :verified:
in reply to mekka okereke :verified: • • •@mastodonmigration @RustyRing
Again, many of the people on Mastodon have a hard time empathizing with a Black user on Twitter.
The "BlueSky might go bad one day!" Is a future hypothetical. But "Mastodon is not great for Black folks" is real today.
Why would a Black woman choose to come here when BlueSky meets her needs? To come here where people that advocate for her safety are attacked and abused, very few other Black women are here, and she gets told to CW everything she posts?
2/N
RustyRing
in reply to mekka okereke :verified: • • •@mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration
Thank you for being stubborn, Mekka.
I agree that the situation you describe is untenable. Thank you for making me aware of it. Sounds like a classic tail-chase: I haven't witnessed this behaviour because I don't see many Black people here. Why don't I see Black people here? Because of this behaviour.
El Duvelle
in reply to RustyRing • • •You haven't witnessed the racist and abusive behaviour because, currently, Mastodon users cannot see all the replies of any given post, due to the way Mastodon works.
A solution has been implemented on our instance, and I can now see all replies to a post if I want and it makes a huge difference! I can see the spam, the nasty posts, and the well-intentioned users just repeating the same thing over and over again because they can't see that someone else already said it.
We hope that it will be incorporated to the main mastodon code asap (neuromatch.social/@jonny/11349… by @jonny).
#FetchAllReplies
@mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james
jonny (good kind)
2024-11-16 09:51:28
Rob 🏳️🌈 RMiddleton.Art reshared this.
Carl-Henrik Barnekow
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle @RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration
Thank you all for a very informative thread. As just a “usual user” who came here a few months ago I see a challenge with usability. Not seeing all replies on post means I do not see all bad posts and can’t react against them.
Also, Mastodon lack some basic functionality that I feel is important to be able to discuss topics
jonny (good kind)
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Add Fetch All Replies Part 1: Backend by sneakers-the-rat · Pull Request #32615 · mastodon/mastodon
GitHubEl Duvelle reshared this.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle All of this is true, but there is a caveat: abusive replies (the really bad, intentional kind) are often posted with "followers only" visibility, meaning even with "fetch all replies", still only the harasser, their friends, and the harassed person can see the reply. Even the mods might not see it until it's reported.
My stance is that "followers only" replies make no non-abusive sense and need to be filtered by default.
@RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james
El Duvelle reshared this.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@elduvelle I'm on a single-user instance so I don't know what the typical moderator experience is like. I'm curious: when admins/mods look at a local thread, can they see "followers only" replies that they are not explicitly tagged in? I guess in general they would not be visible, but it would make sense for the purpose of moderation if admins could always see all replies to people on their server, including non-public ones.
@RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james
El Duvelle
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •cc @jonny in case they know better..
jonny (good kind)
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Julian Fietkau
in reply to El Duvelle • • •jonny (good kind)
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •El Duvelle
in reply to jonny (good kind) • • •Troed Sångberg
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle
Oh wow that's indeed an awesome PR. I hope it'll be able to be merged - I think the only concern might be the increased levels of traffic it'll create.
Otoh, I think we (instance owners) must accept that traffic for the fediverse to "work".
@RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james
Robert Kingett
in reply to El Duvelle • • •I fully agree with you! Fully agree!
Even this one simple addition would be a billion times better!
Mastodon won't add this because the BDFL Eugen Rochko won't think it's useful and if anybody does add it, it will take him 5 years to make an exact replica of the code himself and pretend it was his idea. There are better forks and, frankly, better projects out there. So do you know what forks are adding this? Like I told others, Mastodon ain't where it will be at, but a project like GoToSocial, actually! Is this something instances hosted on things like Mastohost do? Would love to add this to my instance, or at least tell others how to do it. In the meantime, trying to get vinella Mastodon to do *anything* will be an uphill battle so go to other projects in the Fediverse. @elduvelle @RustyRing @jonny @mekkaokereke @mastodonmigration @james