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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

@NicksWorld It absolutely makes me want to throw things every time I see some yahoo talking about how they don’t hate immigrants, they just need to do it the right way. Right now, there ostensibly is no right way, because all avenues are being blocked. And even those who have been doing it the so-called right way are being snatched up and deported.
in reply to Cory Doctorow

@jcsteh I have lived in the United States for nearly 30 years. The only thing left was the interview, but I withdrew my citizenship application in 2017. You can probably guess why.
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@Jane
in reply to Cory Doctorow

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

the whole deporting people who have open pending cases is absolutely atrocious and nobody is doing Jack shit about it. It's like the one clear thing they can bring uscis to court on
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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
in reply to Graeme 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

@pa27
This essay might help explain it

Whenever I despair about my country (which is often) I reread this

kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/…

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

the cruelty is of course the point.

It's similar here in the UK. "If only they came here legally", the Reformers cry about refugees arriving on small boats. As if A) this isn't actually legal and B) this doesn't only happen because all practical routes have been shut down by the government.

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Whenever anyone says they're "proud to be an American" I congratulate them on getting through the US naturalization process, which is difficult. If they respond they were just born there, I have to say "dude, your parents did that, not you!"

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in reply to Serf de Web

@serfdeweb
Well, in my case I had some great-great-great ancestors who fought to make this a country in the first place. But, yeah. Being 'born in the USA' is like being 'born rich'. You didn't do anything to earn it, you just got lucky in terms of which womb you popped out of.

Oh, and as for being proud of my ancestors? Not so much. Others did terrible things to indigenous peoples or were on the wrong side of the Civil War.

in reply to Jack William Bell

@serfdeweb @jackwilliambell my ancestors showed up during the days of open immigration. Just step off the ship and say you were a citizen.
in reply to Cory Doctorow

Horrendous. I'm a privileged white guy who emigrated to the U.S. on a green card in 1977. No lawyers. I made one visit to the U.S. Embassy in London, and after a short outsourced medical exam, the Ambassador shook my hand and said, "We're glad you're coming to the United States."

Didn't even think of becoming a citizen until 1994. No lawyers. The paper application was easy to fill out. After an interview, I was "naturalized" at a surreal ceremony in Derby Line, VT.

No more. 😡

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in reply to Adrian Segar

@ASegar I got a US visa in 1973 at the Embassy in London. Filled in a small form, went to collect passport with visa "valid indefinitely for multiple applications". Never went in the end.
in reply to AnneH

@annehargreaves @ASegar My first US visa (which I was stretching the definition of, but always was completely honest on entry, so I think it was stretch not break) was "indefinite". Which I think was later redefined as 10 years (or some such figure). This was 1987 (used until 1988).
in reply to Adrian Segar

@ASegar Mine was in a federal court, where we handed in green cards and had this whole ceremony with a video (and signed letter) from Obama, reciting the pledge of allegiance, a lecture on how important voting is, etc. Is that what it was like back then?

I always wondered how it evolved over time, presumably becoming increasingly patriotic.

in reply to Stu

@tehstu My naturalization ceremony was surreal because it was organized by the INS and included a) a bunch of VFW folks marching down the aisle, and b) a "comedian" who told jokes, supposedly about Vermont, that weren't funny.

When our kids were naturalized (such a weird term), they had a lovely ceremony in Federal court, where the judge, in a moving speech, said this was the best part of his job.

@Stu
in reply to Cory Doctorow

Another another Canadian who had to deal with it (in my case through marriage which is supposedly the easiest path) it still took close to 8 years and more lawyers fees and application fees than I care to think about.
in reply to Cory Doctorow

That sounds awful!

And I'm German. Used to well-crafted bureaucratic mazes of considerable size. And very aware that our bureaucracy is also much harder for immigrants and other less privileged groups.

But I think it's not *that* cruel. And does not have *such* open ties to capitalist profit-seeking by immigration lawyers et al.

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

I've always wondered why I hear so much more about "undocumented immigrants" in the USA than anywhere else
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in reply to Cory Doctorow

"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"

Why would we?

None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it

Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?

Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?

It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view

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in reply to CodeByJeff

@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
in reply to Cory Doctorow

yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of

"'by international standards"

as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America

We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"

I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here

in reply to CodeByJeff

@codebyjeff I live in France. We know how bad our system is because of language tests and general culture questions even French people would have a hard time answering. But for knowing several people who applied for citizenship, at no point is there things as twisted as 1200p forms to fill (long forms sure, but not that long).

This is batshit insane, but the US is known to set up crazy things in place (the Healthcare system for ex.) and people there being confused when discovering that "No, we don't do *batshit crazy thing* in the rest of the world. Only you do."

in reply to G. Clavier

@codebyjeff @Enthalpiste It's not so much a 1200p form, as pages of evidence like payslips, rental contracts, tax returns...
My recent residence permit renewal was 48 pages not including the actual form.
in reply to G. Clavier

@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff most Brits would fail the nationality test to become British as it is utterly insane and bears no resemblance to modern British life.

I've still got the joy of French Nationality to come...

in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff my understanding is that the British test is as crazy as it is because at least one govt insisted that the pass rate be lowered, so they added more trivia to bring it down
in reply to aoanla

@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff I've long said that to be allowed to stand for public office you should be able to pass your own nationality test. Most politicians would fail, just like most general people would, and they may then evaluate the whole process... Or not.

Like you I fear it's designed as a deliberate barrier rather than a meaningful test, and no one has the guts to say that in public.

in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff the British test was explicitly created in response to the (earlier) wave of anti-immigration sentiment, and was made harder in 2013 (when the Tories got into power and wanted to seem tougher on immigration). So, the circumstantial evidence seems like it points that way!
in reply to aoanla

@aoanla @drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff oh 100%, and the French making the language test harder follow in the same path. And the cost for the U.K. visas before you can even apply have been cranked up madly over the Tory govs, and now the time required was extended. A colleague’s Canadian partner was about to reach the 5 years required, but Labour increased to 10 years with no notice. Utter bastards the lot of them.
in reply to Nicovel0 🍉

@aoanla @drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff so many times I’ve come across people who are like “but you’re married to a Brit doesn’t that give you nationality?” No it bloody doesn’t, you’re thinking about slightly less barbaric countries
in reply to aoanla

@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff A Polish colleague had several large lever-arch files of stuff for her nationality paperwork.

As you say it was deliberately complicated, expensive and full of stupid and arbitrary steps designed to put people off.

None of the Brits in our office was able to pass the test, it was full of obscure questions with ambiguous answers. My colleague had diligently learnt by rote, hundreds of Q&As but that didn't make her any more or less British.

in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt
For a more accurate test, if someone simply wrote “fuck this for a game of soldiers” across the paper that should be an automatic pass.
@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @pluralistic
in reply to Adam Trickett

@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @drajt A local refugee charity ran a fundraising quiz based on the Life in the UK test. My team won but would have failed the test!
in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff having to learn incorrect things for the U.K. test is one of the reasons I haven’t taken it, but also the costs: application fee is £1300, plus other charges to sit the tests, plus access to lessons. In comparison if my wife decides to sit the French test it will be €50,, lessons are free.
My Indian colleague just got Dutch nationality and it was similar to France apparently.
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in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff I started the process to get Irish citizenship. As a (Dutch) EU national there isn't a HUGE incentive but it would allow me to vote in Dáil elections. But it's a bit of a palava and a bit expensive. Especially the latter irks me. I've been here over 30 years. I started paying taxes the moment I arrived and started the job I came here to do. I feel there should be a sliding scale for the cost, slowly reducing over time.
in reply to Pino Carafa

when we lived in the UK there was no incentive for my French wife to seek UK nationality. Then Brexit happened, and every nasty little thug that had been hiding was suddenly splashed all over the media.

We moved to France and while I only have "Brexit refugee" status, it's in my interest to apply for nationality. I fully qualify, I just need to pass the language test, which is hard for a middle-aged dyslexic...

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in reply to Adam Trickett

@rozeboosje @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @drajt And as of 1st Jan a citizenship test. And the level required for the language test has gone up (from B1 to B2).
They only want people who would be able to enter university.
in reply to Pino Carafa

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff The other thing that pisses me off, and I'm going to use some rude language here.

20yo: "You're not allowed to vote in Irish parliamentary elections because you're not Irish"

Me: "I'm here 30+ years. Over 10 years longer than YOU. I paid taxes from day 1. YOU have only been receiving from society. I arrived here by plane and you were shat into this country by your mammie. That's the only difference but you can vote and I can't. Make it make sense."

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in reply to Adam Trickett

@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff Just throwing it out there, but there is a UK government petition that would mandate any MPs need to pass the citzenship test to keep their job. I dont see it ever becoming law, but I'd love if enough people signed that it got to the debate and they had to weasel their way out of it while still maintaining that it is an effective test for new citizens. petition.parliament.uk/petitio…
in reply to Cory Doctorow

And that's 1200 pages after the "Paperwork Reduction Act".

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Do you have joint citizenship (ie, have you kept your Canadian citizenship) or did you go the whole hog? Forgive me for asking, just curious.
in reply to Cory Doctorow

@LillyHerself

... and with that, freedom to roam across the entire EU; sadly not a feature of your UK passport after Farage succeeded in Putin's foreign policy objectives.