Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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Citizenship packet and oath, federal building, Downtown Los Angeles, California, USA
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Kevin LaRose, Antifa Member
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Chi Kim
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
But then my kid applied to university and was told that she should sign up for FASFA, which is the federal student loan and grant process; she got pretty good grades and there was a chance she could get a couple grand knocked off her tuition. Seemed like a good idea to me.
So we filled in the FASFA paperwork, and partway through, it asks if you are a naturalized citizen, and, if you are, it asks you to upload a copy of your certificate of citizenship.
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Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
Jane
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Allan Chow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Graeme 🏴
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Kim Scheinberg
in reply to Graeme 🏴 • • •@pa27
This essay might help explain it
Whenever I despair about my country (which is often) I reread this
kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/…
American
kieranhealy.orgCory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
But the US citizenship test is the *easy* part. That test sits at the center of a bureaucratic maze that no American could find their way through.
eof/
Ben Aveling
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
That the system is impossible to navigate without error is a feature, not a bug.
The inevitable errors go unnoticed, so long as no one in power has reason to notice them.
They get the immigrants they want, and an easy way to get rid of people they don't want.
The aim of a police state is to make it necessary to commit crimes to survive. The police choose which crimes to enforce, and which not, and that gives them power over people.
@pluralistic
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Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:
congress.gov/119/meeting/house…
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.
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Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
One woman plaintively called out, "Why does everything get worse all the time?" (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of someone saying that within my earshot):
pluralistic.net/2024/10/14/pea…
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Pluralistic: Dirty words are politically potent (14 Oct 2024) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow
pluralistic.netCory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Southwest sucks today because of just one guy: Paul Singer, the billionaire owner of Elliott Investment Management, who bought a stake in SWA and used it to force the board to end open seating and free bag-check, then sold off his stake and disappeared into the sunset, millions richer, leaving behind a pile of shit where a beloved airline once flew:
forbes.com/sites/suzannerowank…
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Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
Your parents - long dead - never got you that certificate, so you create an online ID with the immigration service and try to complete form N-600. Do you know the date and flight number for the plane you flew to America on when you were three? Do you know your passport number from back then? Do you have all three of each of your dead parents' numeric immigration identifiers?
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?
Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
I get to do *luxury Kafka*, the business class version of US immigration Kafka, where you get to board first and nibble from a dish of warm nuts while everyone else shuffles past you, and I've *given up* on getting my daughter's certificate of citizenship. The alternative - omitting a single American vacation between 1971 and 2022 - could constitute an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, after all.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
This was terrible a couple years ago, when the immigration system still had human operators you could reach by sitting on hold for several hours. Today, thanks to a single billionaire's gleeful cruelty, the system is literally unnavigable, "staffed" by a chatbot that can't answer basic questions. A timely reminder that the only jobs AI can do are the jobs that no one gives a shit about:
pluralistic.net/2025/08/06/unm…
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Pluralistic: Which jobs can be replaced with AI? (06 Aug 2025) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow
pluralistic.netCory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
But there *is* an option to escalate the online chat from a bot to a human. So I tried that, and, after repeatedly being prompted to provide my full name and address (home address and mailing address), date of birth, phone number - and disconnected for not typing all this quickly enough - the human eventually pasted in boilerplate telling me to consult an immigration attorney and terminated the chat before I could reply.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
To be clear: this is *immigration on the easiest setting*. I am an affluent native English speaker with access to immigration counsel at a fancy firm.
Imagine instead that you are not as lucky as I am. Imagine that your parents brought you to the USA 60 years ago, and that you've been a citizen for more than half a century, but you're being told that you should carry your certificate of citizenship if you don't want to be shot in the face or kidnapped to a slave labor camp.
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Cory Doctorow
Unknown parent • • •Sensitive content
That includes, for example, the time when I was two years old and my parents took me to Fort Lauderdale to visit my retired grandparents. This question comes after a screen where you attest that you will not make any omissions or errors, and that any such omission or error will be treated as an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, with the most severe penalties imaginable.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
I tried to call the US immigration service's info line. It is now staffed exclusively by an AI chatbot (thanks, Elon). I tried a dozen times to get the chatbot to put me on the phone with a human who could confirm what I should do about visits to the US that I took more than 50 years ago, when I was two years old. But the chatbot would only offer to text me a link to the online form, which has no guidance on this subject.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Then I tried the online chat, which is *also* answered by a chatbot. This chatbot only allows you to ask questions that are less than 80 characters long. Eventually, I managed to piece together a complete conversation with the chatbot that conveyed my question, and it gave me a link to the same online form.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
My wife and I have certificates, but the kid doesn't - she was naturalized along with my wife, and while my wife's certificate was sufficient to get our daughter a passport, it doesn't have the kid's name on it.
I checked in with our lawyers and was told that the kid couldn't get her certificate of citizenship until she turned 18, which she did last Tuesday. My calendar reminded me that it was time to fill in her N-600, the form for applying for a certificate of citizenship.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
So yesterday, I sat down at the computer, cleared a couple hours, and went to work. I am used to gnarly bureaucratic questions on this kind of paperwork, and I confess I get a small thrill of victory whenever I can bring up an obscure document demanded by the form. For example: I was able to pull up the number of the passport our daughter used to enter the country in 2015, along with the flight number and date.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
I was able to pull up all *three* of the numbers that the US immigration service assigned to both my wife *and* me.
And then, about two hours into this process, I got to this section of the form: "U.S. citizen mother or father's physical presence." This section requires me to list every border crossing I made into the USA *from the day I was born until the date I became a citizen*.
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The Casual Critic
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •the cruelty is of course the point.
It's similar here in the UK. "If only they came here legally", the Reformers cry about refugees arriving on small boats. As if A) this isn't actually legal and B) this doesn't only happen because all practical routes have been shut down by the government.
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Serf de Web
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Cory Doctorow reshared this.
Jack William Bell
in reply to Serf de Web • • •@serfdeweb
Well, in my case I had some great-great-great ancestors who fought to make this a country in the first place. But, yeah. Being 'born in the USA' is like being 'born rich'. You didn't do anything to earn it, you just got lucky in terms of which womb you popped out of.
Oh, and as for being proud of my ancestors? Not so much. Others did terrible things to indigenous peoples or were on the wrong side of the Civil War.
DragonBard
in reply to Jack William Bell • • •Adrian Segar
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Horrendous. I'm a privileged white guy who emigrated to the U.S. on a green card in 1977. No lawyers. I made one visit to the U.S. Embassy in London, and after a short outsourced medical exam, the Ambassador shook my hand and said, "We're glad you're coming to the United States."
Didn't even think of becoming a citizen until 1994. No lawyers. The paper application was easy to fill out. After an interview, I was "naturalized" at a surreal ceremony in Derby Line, VT.
No more. 😡
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AnneH
in reply to Adrian Segar • • •Christopher
in reply to AnneH • • •Stu
in reply to Adrian Segar • • •@ASegar Mine was in a federal court, where we handed in green cards and had this whole ceremony with a video (and signed letter) from Obama, reciting the pledge of allegiance, a lecture on how important voting is, etc. Is that what it was like back then?
I always wondered how it evolved over time, presumably becoming increasingly patriotic.
Adrian Segar
in reply to Stu • • •@tehstu My naturalization ceremony was surreal because it was organized by the INS and included a) a bunch of VFW folks marching down the aisle, and b) a "comedian" who told jokes, supposedly about Vermont, that weren't funny.
When our kids were naturalized (such a weird term), they had a lovely ceremony in Federal court, where the judge, in a moving speech, said this was the best part of his job.
Robin Monks
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Benjamin Braatz
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •That sounds awful!
And I'm German. Used to well-crafted bureaucratic mazes of considerable size. And very aware that our bureaucracy is also much harder for immigrants and other less privileged groups.
But I think it's not *that* cruel. And does not have *such* open ties to capitalist profit-seeking by immigration lawyers et al.
Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
A couple years ago, Americans' ignorance of their immigration system was merely frustrating, as I encountered squishy liberals and xenophobic conservatives talking about undocumented immigrants and insisting they should "just follow the rules." But today, as murderous ICE squads roam our streets kidnapping people and sending them to concentration camps to be beaten to death or deported to offshore slave labor prisons, the issue's gone from frustrating to terrifying and enraging.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
Let's be clear: I played the US immigration game on the easiest level. I am relatively affluent - rich enough to afford fancy immigration lawyers with offices on four continents - and I am a native English speaker. This made the immigration system ten thousand times (at a minimum) easier for me than it is for most US immigrants.
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Cory Doctorow
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
There are lots of Americans (who don't know anything about their own immigration system) who advocate for a "points-based" system that favors rich people and professionals, but America *already* has this system, because dealing with the immigration process costs tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and without a lawyer, it is essentially unnavigable.
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Anna Spanner 👩🏫🇪🇺🇬🇧
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
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Trantion
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •The Crafty Miss
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
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CodeByJeff
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"
Why would we?
None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it
Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?
Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?
It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view
Cory Doctorow
in reply to CodeByJeff • • •CodeByJeff
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of
"'by international standards"
as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America
We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"
I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here
G. Clavier
in reply to CodeByJeff • • •@codebyjeff I live in France. We know how bad our system is because of language tests and general culture questions even French people would have a hard time answering. But for knowing several people who applied for citizenship, at no point is there things as twisted as 1200p forms to fill (long forms sure, but not that long).
This is batshit insane, but the US is known to set up crazy things in place (the Healthcare system for ex.) and people there being confused when discovering that "No, we don't do *batshit crazy thing* in the rest of the world. Only you do."
Graeme Hilton
in reply to G. Clavier • • •My recent residence permit renewal was 48 pages not including the actual form.
Adam Trickett
in reply to G. Clavier • • •@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff most Brits would fail the nationality test to become British as it is utterly insane and bears no resemblance to modern British life.
I've still got the joy of French Nationality to come...
aoanla
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •Adam Trickett
in reply to aoanla • • •@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff I've long said that to be allowed to stand for public office you should be able to pass your own nationality test. Most politicians would fail, just like most general people would, and they may then evaluate the whole process... Or not.
Like you I fear it's designed as a deliberate barrier rather than a meaningful test, and no one has the guts to say that in public.
aoanla
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •Nicovel0 🍉
in reply to aoanla • • •Nicovel0 🍉
in reply to Nicovel0 🍉 • • •Adam Trickett
in reply to aoanla • • •@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff A Polish colleague had several large lever-arch files of stuff for her nationality paperwork.
As you say it was deliberately complicated, expensive and full of stupid and arbitrary steps designed to put people off.
None of the Brits in our office was able to pass the test, it was full of obscure questions with ambiguous answers. My colleague had diligently learnt by rote, hundreds of Q&As but that didn't make her any more or less British.
Jón Fairbairn
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •For a more accurate test, if someone simply wrote “fuck this for a game of soldiers” across the paper that should be an automatic pass.
@aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @pluralistic
Adam Trickett
in reply to Jón Fairbairn • • •@jonfairbairn @aoanla @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff very much so.
However after Windrush a lot of people are genuinely scared of being deported...
Speculation Fictive
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •Nicovel0 🍉
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •My Indian colleague just got Dutch nationality and it was similar to France apparently.
Pino Carafa
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •Adam Trickett
in reply to Pino Carafa • • •when we lived in the UK there was no incentive for my French wife to seek UK nationality. Then Brexit happened, and every nasty little thug that had been hiding was suddenly splashed all over the media.
We moved to France and while I only have "Brexit refugee" status, it's in my interest to apply for nationality. I fully qualify, I just need to pass the language test, which is hard for a middle-aged dyslexic...
Graeme Hilton
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •They only want people who would be able to enter university.
Pino Carafa
in reply to Pino Carafa • • •@drajt @Enthalpiste @codebyjeff The other thing that pisses me off, and I'm going to use some rude language here.
20yo: "You're not allowed to vote in Irish parliamentary elections because you're not Irish"
Me: "I'm here 30+ years. Over 10 years longer than YOU. I paid taxes from day 1. YOU have only been receiving from society. I arrived here by plane and you were shat into this country by your mammie. That's the only difference but you can vote and I can't. Make it make sense."
LonM
in reply to Adam Trickett • • •Petition: Require all UK MPs and Ministers to take and pass the Citizenship Test
Petitions - UK Government and ParliamentPaul Armstrong
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Cory Doctorow reshared this.
Fripi (DECT 3034)
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Sensitive content
people talking about immigration rarely know anything about it. But that the US system is that bad, I didn't know that.
The more I learn about the country the less I am interested.
LillyLyle/Count Melancholia
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •Cory Doctorow
in reply to LillyLyle/Count Melancholia • • •/home/matth
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •@LillyHerself
... and with that, freedom to roam across the entire EU; sadly not a feature of your UK passport after Farage succeeded in Putin's foreign policy objectives.