I have no idea if this holds true elsewhere but if you're from Pennsylvania the phrase "you guys" is pretty much completely gender neutral, much like "dude" is in California
@justinwilkins After I read a long article about "guy" vs. "guys", which was mentioned as possibly to become #genderneutral (but not to be so universally, everywhere), it was suggested to use "folks" instead, which I use since.
The interesting aspect in this article was - linguistically seen -, that "guys" could get another meaning, when used as plural, like the difference between "arm" and "arms".
@fasnix @justinwilkins Just as it takes a little effort to say them when others' gender preference not known. Matter of courtesy. It's a little effort not to say shit when around strangers (so unknown if it will bug them) but I've been doing that for decades too.
@Shunra oh, I struggle not to do it but it still happens on both counts. I think the better and more inclusive move is to drop the gender affiliation tbh and also it benefits me so that's a nice side bonus
@LGsMom In my experience it's more to do with the fact that if you said "hey girls" to a group no one would think it was neutral, so that the defense of "guys" being neutral is that male is a default, and it shouldn't be. My favorite example was, "If a guy says dude/guys is neutral, ask him how many dudes/guys he's slept with to see how he really feels."
yeah that works too. English is my 2nd language so being able to learn different ways of saying “hey guys” helps (esp when dealing with different cultures)
@BruceMirken idk what to tell you, I lived there too for a while and there are people who use dude to refer to both genders, stop signs, birds, the bathtub drain plug, you name it 🤷🏻♂️
Tonight was literally the first time in my life I've heard that anyone considered "dude" gender-neutral. It's just a bizarre notion. I'm curious: Are any of the people saying this women?
@BruceMirken @Hey_Beth In my life, Dude is gender neutral when talking to someone directly, a la "Hey, dude." It is not neutral when talking about someone else, a la "And this dude spilled his coffee on me..."
I spent my teens in 70s California, and "you guys" was always gender neutral. I was actually surprised to later find that many people thought it meant "you males".
Weirdly I guess the South can pat themselves on the back for getting out in front of things with “y’all”. And to be extra inclusive you can drop an “all y’all” in there.
This was true where I grew up (TN), but then that's "y'all" country, and despite many less-than-enlightened traditions emanating from that region, "y'all" has always been genderless.
This is how I use it in Australia. Occasionally people insist it's wrong to use a male only term. I disagree. Originally yes, we imported it as a male only term, but time marches on. Most of Australia uses it generically. But... We still gender it, often. Use with caution, or without giving a whatsit. 🤷♂️
I hear that defense, and it's asking me to go along with the local pretense/ delusion that male=default is the same as gender neutral. It's not the same, any more than back when we were supposed to accept that "he" meant "he or she". Male=default language erases women. It's gaslighting to say it doesn't just because locals buy into "guys".
@Configures honestly I can see that being fair in some situations, although I think making the blanket statement it is all bad (particularly when I've heard women use both in a gender neutral way) is not. It's a bit of a moot point for me though as I have dropped "you guys" for "folks" out of respect for those it bothers
Women internalize sexism all the time. Women using "guys" because it's all around them (they're swimming in it), does not mean it doesn't reinforce the idea that male=default and women are forgotten or at best Other. But I'm glad you've switched to "folks", whether you're doing it out of respect for feelings or because you understand the harm that male=default language does.
@mxtthxw The NYC subway has a voice that says "stand clear of the closing doors", and I've always thought "folks" should be appended to it, just for a bit of fun
yeah I'm not trying to be pedantic I feel like it's almost always gender neutral out there. the corner cases existing kinda matter bc ppl occasionally them to be horrible, they're still corner cases etc
I've only lived in CA for some 8 years, and can't claim I've noticed people using 'dude' as gender neutral. Granted, I don't really even hear it at all except possibly exasperatedly.
'guys' seems to me to be men only (except possibly by certain people from a certain costal hippie town) unless it's in one of the two expressions 'hey guys' or 'you guys'.
SF Bay Area Californian here. ”You guys” is generally gender neutral but the singular “guy” is definitely not. “Dude” is really complex and is almost like “Aloha” in that it can be used as a greeting, parting, affirmation, gratitude, grief, etc. More of an emotion than a label.
Well, the TL:DR on this post is A) this was a lot more controversial than I expected, B) there's a lot of nuance to the usage of both words, and C) I use "folks" now anyway because "you guys" bugs some folks. And thus I bid this subject adieu.
I've struggled with this too...I was using "guys" quite regularly until my wife pointed out that it was sexist, and I've been trying to use "folks" instead -- though I've been getting lazy lately so your toot is a good reminder for me.
That was my thought as well. There is always someone, somewhere, who will not like what you say, and for some reason they always crawl out of the woodwork to make sure you know their displeasure.
For me, if they get too obnoxious, I block them and move on.
Officiating a wedding, generated by ChatGPT. It took several tries because it seems it is not appropriate to tell bride(s) and/or groom(s) to "stay fresh cheese bags." I'm not about to upload what it came up with for a eulogy.
Oh dear. When I saw this post I was concerned how it would go over . . . mostly because I've used the word 'guys' a lot in the past and have had to work it out of my vocabulary. Sorry buddy. 😔
it's all good. I switched it out of the rotation too, I'm not used to subjects blowing up the way they do here. I don't think anyone permanently hates me for making the observation of usage and if they do they do. Some people use the words that way, it is what it is
Many places, including the part of California where I was a kid, treated it as gender neutral. But it bugs some people these days and it's no big deal to me, so I'm avoiding it, usually in favour of folks. It's like gender-neutral pronouns: old habits now touch sensitive places; let's just be nice and adjust our habits.
Reminds me of the #British #BBC factoids program #QI, where they once mentioned that ‘boy’ used to mean ‘servant’ and children of both sexes were called girls. The pic is from Indiatoday, a rather arbitrary secondary source…
It’s “lads” in Dublin and I used it for groups, especially children. One English mum found it infuriating. Generally use “folks” in a professional setting.
@mxtthxw I say soundperson usually. I've had three people do sound at shows I've played in Baltimore who are non-binary actually, so it's made sense to just go with soundperson across the board (pun possibly intended)
the lack of a good universal second person plural is a real gap in the English language. We just don't really have a universally understood equivalent to e.g. vosotros/ustedes in Spanish or vous in French. Southern USA has it down with "y'all". But there's no equivalent in British English, for example.
it’s not really though, once you talk to a trans person. it may be intended that way, but there are those of us who spent our life being associated with guys and dudes and now find that incredibly painful. but the culture is set up that way all over, it’s why “hey man!” Is a thing and “hey woman!” isn’t.
@tillybridges oof, this. I hate when I’m out with my cis afab spouse and the server’s like “hey guys”, it’s like they’re trying to not gender me (or worse). Dude, I’m in a skirt. I’m gorgeous. Wtf?
@tillybridges @ValerieMars I gotta be honest, despite removing it from my vocabulary I still considered the usage relatively benign, but this is the point that made me really consider that yeah, there are definitely people out there that would be justifiably hurt by it even if the hurt wasn't intended. Thanks for being open about your experiences and broadening my perspective on the subject.
@ValerieMars thanks for being open to understanding! this is exactly why I try to be so open and have written all my Trans Tuesday essays... a lot of people just don't know, so I just hope to help people understand.
@ValerieMars welcome! please know I mean all of them to be discussions, so if you ever have questions don’t hesitate to ask. I’m happy to field those so other trans people don’t have to. and chances are I may have already written about the very thing your curious about! You can browse around tillystranstuesdays.com if you want, too… over a hundred are archived there 🥳
@ValerieMars me too 💜 I’ve been following you for a while btw, I love your stuff! every photo fascinates me and I want to stare at them for hours, taking in every detail of what is and what was and what might have been. it’s heady stuff.
@tillybridges @ValerieMars thanks so much! I am lucky that people appreciate the places I visit. I never really thought that would happen when I started this project
oh! here’s a question… has anyone ever seen your photos from a place you had to sneak into and you got in trouble after the fact, as the photos were proof you’d been in there? is that a thing you have to worry about?
@joyfulgirl @tillybridges I'm very lucky that I haven't run into issues but I also wait a while to post things and don't do it with identifying info if I think there might be problems. I do know people that have been contacted by angry property owners but the only time I can think of that I was they actually offered to let me come back and document more (although I never heard a follow up on it)
@tillybridges How awesome that the property owner saw the value in your explorations! I genuinely think this is an important, historical perspective, and that we should revere the “spirit” and life of a place the same way we do lost loved ones. There are really important stories there that we can learn from.
No, neither phrase is gender neutral. That's complete bullshit and I would suggest you edit that post to reflect the feedback you're getting about it now.
@scottgal @donmelton There's a difference between "guys" and "you guys", in PA, it would be totally normal for a woman in a room full of women to refer to everyone there as "you guys", but you would never call them a room full of guys. It's like calling your stuff "shit", you don't mean literal feces when you say "I gotta go get my shit", even though there's very little signposting in the language about the difference.
Sorry to add to this thread, but I grew up in Western PA where we said "yinz." I moved to Daytona in my early teens, and all Pittsburghese was a target for mockery. I learned to use "y'all," and have done no matter where I live, even with my Yankee accent.
while you might not consciously mean it in a gendered way, those words ARE gendered, and will likely be interpreted that way by the people you’re addressing.
As a trans person, I hate when I politey ask someone to not use those words for me, and then get “but they’re gender neutral!” back.
@itscooldani yeah, @tillybridges mentioned that too and it wasn't something I had considered but in that context I can see it being unwelcome. I ditched "you guys" a while ago since it does bug some people, and this further cements my resolve to leave it behind. But I do know a bunch of people who use it without ill intent too without even thinking of it as a gendered thing
@tillybridges yea, I definitely appreciate it! It’s hard because I usually am the one arguing that language evolves and word meanings change, and that intent is everything. But even if these words are less gendered than they used to be, they still carry a huge subconscious gendered weight with them that I think people like to ignore. Thanks for being aware and considerate!
@itscooldani @tillybridges you bet. I figure it's a small sacrifice to take a word or phrase out of rotation if it makes someone else feel more respected and valued
lots of divided opinions on that one. Saw a lengthy argument at work with lots of guys saying that guys was offensive and exclusionary towards women. Only a handful of women joined the debate/flamewar, mostly to say they used guys themselves and didn't need a bunch of men to police language on their behalf, although one woman did say she disliked "hey guys". A few people echoed proposals to use "folks" and "y'all" instead, but it sounds really forced and artificial, at least outside the US. This was a European company and I worked in an Irish office where both of those alternatives sound ludicrous and unnatural, and mostly you'd only hear it from management types.
Bruce Halperin :vbike:
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in reply to Abandoned America • • •flo
in reply to Justin Wilkins • • •@justinwilkins
After I read a long article about "guy" vs. "guys", which was mentioned as possibly to become #genderneutral (but not to be so universally, everywhere), it was suggested to use "folks" instead, which I use since.
The interesting aspect in this article was - linguistically seen -, that "guys" could get another meaning, when used as plural, like the difference between "arm" and "arms".
@AbandonedAmerica
Abandoned America
in reply to flo • • •Justin Wilkins
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Norman Wilson
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Shunra
in reply to Abandoned America • • •I felt that way, too, but there were people who found it offensive and said so in their own words. So I changed practice to spare their feelings.
It was hard to do, fwiw. I like both of those phrasings.
Abandoned America
in reply to Shunra • • •Shunra
in reply to Abandoned America • • •LGsMom
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Abandoned America
in reply to LGsMom • • •DB Schwein
in reply to Abandoned America • • •In my experience it's more to do with the fact that if you said "hey girls" to a group no one would think it was neutral, so that the defense of "guys" being neutral is that male is a default, and it shouldn't be.
My favorite example was, "If a guy says dude/guys is neutral, ask him how many dudes/guys he's slept with to see how he really feels."
Jan
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in reply to Bruce Mirken • • •Bruce Mirken
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Hey Beth
in reply to Bruce Mirken • • •A lot of women I know use it gender neutral. One group in particular. 35-45 years old.
Bruce Mirken
in reply to Hey Beth • • •Mr. Andy Face
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in reply to Abandoned America • • •W6KME
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in reply to Abandoned America • • •Sriram "sri" Ramkrishna - 😼
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Mike J👹🐀 🤘🏻
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Electric Company - Rita Moreno - HEY YOU GUYS!!!
YouTubeAbandoned America
in reply to Mike J👹🐀 🤘🏻 • • •Whiskey Bottle
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Unknown parent • • •Abandoned America
Unknown parent • • •Jon
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in reply to Scarab • • •Scarab
in reply to Abandoned America • • •David Haimes
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Ask a straight man what guys he’s having sex with. His reaction tells you guys is NOT gender neutral.
Amy Hoy
in reply to Abandoned America • • •ashley
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Dave Heumann
Unknown parent • • •🐙🐇🐝Pointed Sarah🐞🐡🐧
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in reply to 🐙🐇🐝Pointed Sarah🐞🐡🐧 • • •🐙🐇🐝Pointed Sarah🐞🐡🐧
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Timjan
in reply to Abandoned America • • •I've only lived in CA for some 8 years, and can't claim I've noticed people using 'dude' as gender neutral. Granted, I don't really even hear it at all except possibly exasperatedly.
'guys' seems to me to be men only (except possibly by certain people from a certain costal hippie town) unless it's in one of the two expressions 'hey guys' or 'you guys'.
Michael J. Orlando
in reply to Abandoned America • • •djb
in reply to Abandoned America • • •can confirm
Raised outside Philly.
Been in CA 35yrs nearly.
KanaMauna
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That was my thought as well. There is always someone, somewhere, who will not like what you say, and for some reason they always crawl out of the woodwork to make sure you know their displeasure.
For me, if they get too obnoxious, I block them and move on.
Abandoned America
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Fish in the Percolator
in reply to Abandoned America • • •pocket full of hawthornes 💦
in reply to Abandoned America • • •tbs
in reply to pocket full of hawthornes 💦 • • •@cobie
Somebody's bound to complain about guys, bitches, etc.
Everyone, y'all, 'sup seem to be "neutral" enough 😏
pocket full of hawthornes 💦
in reply to tbs • • •Abandoned America
in reply to pocket full of hawthornes 💦 • • •Ned Hairston :blobcatgay:
in reply to pocket full of hawthornes 💦 • • •- Ending of a sermon ⛪️ (33%, 2 votes)
- Ending of a eulogy ⚰️ (66%, 4 votes)
- Officiating a wedding 💒 (33%, 2 votes)
- Giving thanks during communion 🍷🥖 (16%, 1 vote)
6 voters. Poll end: 1 year agoNed Hairston :blobcatgay:
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in reply to Ned Hairston :blobcatgay: • • •Abandoned America
in reply to Ned Hairston :blobcatgay: • • •pocket full of hawthornes 💦
in reply to Abandoned America • • •@ned
saaaaaame.
c'mon, ned.
Ned Hairston :blobcatgay:
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in reply to Ned Hairston :blobcatgay: • • •Adam
in reply to Abandoned America • • •I said this to a group of friends once and one person got so offended they angrily yelled, "I'M NOT A NERD -- YOU'RE A NERD!"
To which I said, "I mean... duh."
Language is a minefield
Ian M. Noone
in reply to Abandoned America • • •"You guys" in New England, as well, though I'm just as likely to say y'all.
Also, in Western PA, it's "yinz guys", while in Philly it'd be "youse guys".
Peter Kisner ≈
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Preferably seeing if I can work in a subtle note of disdain
Matt :verified_mastodon:
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My server since 4 days 5 hours and 10 minutes.
Aletheia
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Unknown parent • • •I've had three people do sound at shows I've played in Baltimore who are non-binary actually, so it's made sense to just go with soundperson across the board (pun possibly intended)
Franklin Delano Stallone
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in reply to Abandoned America • • •They claim the same in Scotland. As former Californians, it bugs us.
We use the rejoinder, "oh, so how many guys have you dated?" frequently, as a sort of attempted disproof.
Joe
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GIPHYDucky
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Southern girl here, big fan of “y’all”. Also loves sweet tea and fluffy biscuits.
@AbandonedAmerica @tillybridges
Tilly Bridges
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in reply to Abandoned America • • •Cassander
in reply to Abandoned America • • •(Parts of) Pennsylvania has "yinz", which is nonsensical enough that I always assumed it was ungendered?
Also I feel a guttural revulsion when I hear it, but that's besides the point.
I'm from the south so I use "y'all" or "alla-y'all" if it's a big group.
Abandoned America
in reply to Cassander • • •benhellmann
in reply to Abandoned America • • •I moved to Daytona in my early teens, and all Pittsburghese was a target for mockery. I learned to use "y'all," and have done no matter where I live, even with my Yankee accent.
Dani (She/They)
in reply to Abandoned America • • •while you might not consciously mean it in a gendered way, those words ARE gendered, and will likely be interpreted that way by the people you’re addressing.
As a trans person, I hate when I politey ask someone to not use those words for me, and then get “but they’re gender neutral!” back.
Abandoned America
in reply to Dani (She/They) • • •Dani (She/They)
in reply to Abandoned America • • •Abandoned America
in reply to Dani (She/They) • • •jrdoyon
in reply to Abandoned America • • •as a former pennsylvanian, where i grew up, 'you guys' or just 'guys' is totally cool.
if you're from the pittsburgh area, it's 'yins'.
Joyful Girl
in reply to Abandoned America • • •mizblueprint
in reply to Abandoned America • • •ganxel
in reply to Abandoned America • • •A few people echoed proposals to use "folks" and "y'all" instead, but it sounds really forced and artificial, at least outside the US. This was a European company and I worked in an Irish office where both of those alternatives sound ludicrous and unnatural, and mostly you'd only hear it from management types.