Most, if not all car companies collect and profile your data, how can I improve my privacy when buying a modern car?
I think car privacy isn't talked about amongst any privacy enthusiasts online ever, and it apparently is one of the biggest data collectors out there. For someone like me who values electric cars for there affordability and environmental reasons, but still want physical car buttons and control over my data, how would I go about this?
*Privacy Not Included | Shop smart and safe | Mozilla Foundation
Cars and their privacy and security concernsMozilla Foundation
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artyom
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •E: if you have the disposable funds or the skills you can do an EV conversion.
asbestos
in reply to artyom • • •Jarix
in reply to asbestos • • •magiccupcake
in reply to artyom • • •Hirom
in reply to artyom • • •The sad thing is you paid to get a car with a TCU, then paid a mechnic to remove it. Assuming you're not a mechnic/hobbist yourself.
It's good that Mozilla is shaming car companies and shining a spotlight on the issue. Journalists need to ask about tracking and privacy when a new car model comes out. Buyer should ask sellers the same.
artyom
in reply to Hirom • • •mrgoosmoos
in reply to Hirom • • •no, I paid to get a car without that telemetry, as it would be part of the condition of sale
people don't need to just accept what the dealer says. they can tell them to fuck off and go buy somewhere else
PearOfJudes
in reply to mrgoosmoos • • •mrgoosmoos
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •true, effectiveness is not guaranteed
but you can still opt out entirely. bought a 2012 without that bullshit just yesterday
PearOfJudes
in reply to artyom • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •humble_boatsman
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •jim3692
in reply to humble_boatsman • • •- you work night shifts
- you live in countryside
- you have a baby
sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Electric cars are not that great for the environment if you look into it deeply. Purchasing an old car and having things rebuilt like the engine are much more sustainable. You could also swap the engine out for an electric motor.
The largest block to having modern private cars is that laws require cars to have driver monitoring systems and kill switches installed. Cars also have microphones in them for hands free calling, emergency calls, and active noise cancellation.
Connecting your phone to your car is also a huge privacy invasion as now your phone that knows everything about you is tied to an invasive vehicle that takes you everywhere. A data aggregators wet dream.
You would need to remove the sim card at the minimum but it's impossible to know ahead of time if that will detrimentally affect it's functions and throw codes.
I have read about work being done on Linux operating systems for cars that I assume would be more open to modification but I don't think we can expect anything reasonably private anytime soon from that.
ashx64
in reply to sic_semper_tyrannis • • •INeedANewUserName
in reply to ashx64 • • •JayGray91🐉🍕
in reply to INeedANewUserName • • •My biggest worry with used EV is the batteries. Me living in a tropical country that can reach 40°C that has to take a big toll on battery health.
The other thing stopping me buying a new car is my old car still works fine and I don't want to be in debt again for a car.
grue
in reply to ashx64 • • •sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to grue • • •Giblet2708
in reply to grue • • •My 2015 Leaf asks me every month on the car screen whether I want to opt in or out. I believe the old-timers on mynissanleaf.com, who say that when you tell it to opt out, it does. Sure, it would be better if it only asked once.
I also removed the SIM card.
sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to ashx64 • • •SreudianFlip
in reply to sic_semper_tyrannis • • •Just for Leafs and some of the short range compliance cars like Golfs that don't have active thermal management of the battery. The old SparkEV batteries are following the expected curve mostly: about 10% loss in the 8yr warranty period, followed by relative plateau of slow degradation mitigated somewhat by its overprovisioning. Hyundai and Kia etc. batteries should be fine, for example.
Telemetry is just as much a problem though.
sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to SreudianFlip • • •SreudianFlip
in reply to sic_semper_tyrannis • • •No no, after initial degradation, the battery health levels off and stays around 90% for a long while, generally.
My ICE vehicles are maintained but don't have the new car fuel efficiency either. I wouldn't be surprised to find they have lost 15% since they are pretty old.
Recent research shows that batteries are likely to outlast the body of most EVs, if the battery is not abused.
Also, people overestimate the typical daily range used with the primary or secondary vehicles, but even short range EVs cover the average daily drive for most.
sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to SreudianFlip • • •PearOfJudes
in reply to ashx64 • • •Auli
in reply to sic_semper_tyrannis • • •sic_semper_tyrannis
in reply to Auli • • •Timestamp 11min10sec
- YouTube
www.youtube.comBlaster M
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Ah, yes, here come the "just use your old car because EVs are worse for the environment than the Exxon Valdez or something" posts
That is a myth thoroughly debunked by just a little bit of research and data collection into the making and driving of EVs, as that assumption ran off an old study that used guesstimated worst-case scenario numbers and don't really reflect what the actual numbers are.
If you want to avoid being tracked, you will have to disconnect the data modem somehow - it is part of your radio antenna. If it gets no power, it gets no connection. Either disconnect from the telematics unit, or at the antenna. Also, you can disconnect your telematics unit itself - the "black box" that lives under the dash and records your driving. Some aftermarket makers have "dummy plug" connectors which will trick the car into thinking it is connected. These are often used with aftermarket head units.
Beware that some cars are tracked by your financial lender, and they don't like it when this happens. Some other cars actually have to be cloud connected once in a whil
... Show more...Ah, yes, here come the "just use your old car because EVs are worse for the environment than the Exxon Valdez or something" posts
That is a myth thoroughly debunked by just a little bit of research and data collection into the making and driving of EVs, as that assumption ran off an old study that used guesstimated worst-case scenario numbers and don't really reflect what the actual numbers are.
If you want to avoid being tracked, you will have to disconnect the data modem somehow - it is part of your radio antenna. If it gets no power, it gets no connection. Either disconnect from the telematics unit, or at the antenna. Also, you can disconnect your telematics unit itself - the "black box" that lives under the dash and records your driving. Some aftermarket makers have "dummy plug" connectors which will trick the car into thinking it is connected. These are often used with aftermarket head units.
Beware that some cars are tracked by your financial lender, and they don't like it when this happens. Some other cars actually have to be cloud connected once in a while or they stop working - which is the worst thing modern cars can do.
blitzen
in reply to Blaster M • • •Deckname
in reply to blitzen • • •Auli
in reply to Blaster M • • •monovergent
in reply to Auli • • •thatKamGuy
in reply to Auli • • •Rough math involved: production of a new EV results in between 8-15 tonnes of CO2 emissions, depending on the size of the batteries and vehicle trim.
But let’s aim for somewhere in the middle and take ~12 tonnes as a yardstick.
~12 tonnes of CO2 emissions equates to roughly 1,350 gallons of fuel.
Depending of fuel efficiency, this would equate to between 20k~45k miles.
Feel free to double-check my math in case I did anything wrong, but it does validate that most of these „facts” around EVs are likely FUD spread by fossil fuel aligned sources.
ETA: initially forgot to include CO2 emissions from electricity generation - but this varies wildly based on source (nuclear, hydro & renewables at 0 etc.)
VintageGenious
in reply to thatKamGuy • • •thatKamGuy
in reply to VintageGenious • • •It was rough, back of the napkin math - primarily intended for those in places where EV disinformation is highest (the US).
Those of us that primarily use metric are more than capable of roughly converting in our heads as required! 😅
bob
in reply to thatKamGuy • • •I find this a bit misleasing, especially when (in the uk) electricity is only ~50% renewables apparently.
zemo.org.uk/assets/workingdocu…
So EVs are a small improvement. Since I enjoy older cars and my privacy a lot more, I'm gonna keep enjoying them and not let manafacturers ram EVs down my throat, especially when a lot of them are hideous SUVs.
thatKamGuy
in reply to bob • • •Not intentionally being misleading, as I do have a footnote calling out not including carbon emissions from electricity generation as they vary so wildly based on the energy source.
But unlike ICE cars, EV emissions from energy sources are improving over time as nations build more and more renewable energy sources. Your linked report is correct, but potentially out of date already - the UK for instance was already at 58% in 2024, with a goal of full of 95%+ by the end of this decade.
Here in Australia, our uptake of residential solar has been so high that our energy providers are offering free electricity during peak daylight hours to all customers to help use up all of that excess production. It’s quite feasible for a significant portion of us here to be able to not only recharge an EV for free, but with next-to-no CO2 emissions.
Additionally, we now have a big Government subsidy in place to install batteries in our homes as well: ~£4,000 for a ~30kWh system, fully installed!
I share your love for older cars, but with a toddler and another one
... Show more...Not intentionally being misleading, as I do have a footnote calling out not including carbon emissions from electricity generation as they vary so wildly based on the energy source.
But unlike ICE cars, EV emissions from energy sources are improving over time as nations build more and more renewable energy sources. Your linked report is correct, but potentially out of date already - the UK for instance was already at 58% in 2024, with a goal of full of 95%+ by the end of this decade.
Here in Australia, our uptake of residential solar has been so high that our energy providers are offering free electricity during peak daylight hours to all customers to help use up all of that excess production. It’s quite feasible for a significant portion of us here to be able to not only recharge an EV for free, but with next-to-no CO2 emissions.
Additionally, we now have a big Government subsidy in place to install batteries in our homes as well: ~£4,000 for a ~30kWh system, fully installed!
I share your love for older cars, but with a toddler and another one planned - we need to have a modern, safe car for peace of mind. But believe me, I will be ensuring that I disable as much telemetry as possible due to privacy concerns.
But for a secondary/weekend car - there is always the option of electrifying an older car, allowing for the best of both worlds - in a sense!
mnemonicmonkeys
in reply to thatKamGuy • • •By "tonnes", do you mean 2,000lb or 1,000kg? In an engineering context, "ton" is the former and "tonne" is the latter.
"Tonne" is also synonymous with "long ton" (dur to converting to 2204.6lb), as well as "metric ton".
thatKamGuy
in reply to mnemonicmonkeys • • •Metric tonnes, as that seems to be the generally used format when discussing CO2 emissions.
Which I know may be confusing, given that I quote imperial values in the rest of the stats - but it was just quick/dirty math and I figured that EV disinformation is highest in the US, so I tried to tailor the values for them.
MrSulu
in reply to Auli • • •PowerCrazy
in reply to Blaster M • • •PearOfJudes
in reply to Blaster M • • •monovergent
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •VoxAliorum
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •artyom
in reply to VoxAliorum • • •I think the most effective way to ensure privacy is to find data mined on anti-privacy politicians and release all of it to the public.
I wish I knew how.
Cyberwolf
in reply to VoxAliorum • • •In other words “ethical hackers” wasted a great opportunity to give shithead politicians a taste of their own venom. Very frustrating.
VoxAliorum
in reply to Cyberwolf • • •FoundFootFootage78
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •I don't really care about car privacy myself.
Where I drive to isn't really a secret, social events are organized on Discord. And if driving recklessly raises my insurance premiums then that's deserved. I wouldn't risk something as expensive as a car with privacy hacks.
Brainsploosh
in reply to FoundFootFootage78 • • •Then you're lacking in imagination.
Similar data have outed people's pregnancies, relationships and locations, which has been used to let people be stalked and even murdered.
Car data can be sold and amalgamated to create a very precise profile of you, available to be purchased by anyone. Anyone with about $100 can purchase access to your daily/weekly schedule, including physical locations, and can easily steal your identity, if not rob or murder you.
Also, foreign propaganda can similarly profile you and hyper target influence campaigns.
guismo
in reply to Brainsploosh • • •To complement the above reply, although you paid a lot for the car, you're paying even more daily, giving many away to very nasty companies that will turn your investment against you to increase their profit. Your data will be sold and you're donating money to billionaires.
Is that what you want? Are you happy to have ads on a windows install you already paid, for example?
Because that's what you're doing. If you got a massive discount on account of the daily extra profit you'll give them I would understand. But if not, why be so charitable to people who don't deserve it?
SreudianFlip
in reply to guismo • • •I bought glasses recently and, like the dork I am, loudly complained about trying to find a pair that didn't have advertisements in the form of logos on the arms. Since they aren't discounted as compensation for fluffing their marketing department, and all that.
Clerk said 'yeah they actually charge more for the stupid name' and shoppers laughed so people mostly know but comply. The supply chain is perverse, ok. Life is full of struggle so the small ones slide.
Rikj000
in reply to FoundFootFootage78 • • •You should, privacy is a human right which is being stripped away from us.
You're basically saying I don't really care about my human rights.
Without privacy, you're one step closer to an authoritan regime, where mass surveillance helps prevent an uprising of the people against it.
E.g. Russia, where you "accidentally slit your throat while shaving" when you go against Putin.
witten
in reply to FoundFootFootage78 • • •argument that one doesn't need privacy unless someone is doing something wrong
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)dizzy
in reply to FoundFootFootage78 • • •grue
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •JamesBoeing737MAX
in reply to grue • • •magic_smoke
in reply to grue • • •Eirikr70
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •TruePe4rl
in reply to Eirikr70 • • •AnUnusualRelic
in reply to TruePe4rl • • •mybuttnolie
in reply to AnUnusualRelic • • •mrgoosmoos
in reply to Eirikr70 • • •RodgeGrabTheCat 🇨🇦🏴☠️
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Anonymouse
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Consumer reports recently added a privacy rating to their car ratings. I glanced at it a little last year. I think it rated if you could opt out and the reach of the sharing.
I do have to say that I'm generally disappointed with the discussion on this topic every tine it comes up. The majority of responses go contrast to the question. "Don't buy a car" or "fix up a junker" are generally not helpful if you've already decided that your top priority is to have a newer car. Another thread actually recommended to move to another country where you could walk everywhere. Seriously.
Most often a car purchase is a complex decision making process where you need to weigh multiple, often conflicting priorities where privacy is only one aspect. I get the impression that if people followed the advice of the majority of these comments, they'd be living in a tent off grid, hunting for food to stay alive, but living their privacy dream.
JamesTBagg
in reply to Anonymouse • • •I don't think you have to "fix up a junker." You can find older vehicles that are modern enough to incorporate OBD2 (which helps troubleshooting and maintaining) but modern enough not to be connected to surveillance programs; late 90s into early 2000s maybe even 2010s. You can find them that have been basically maintained.
You'll sacrifice things like warranties and included maintenance plans, but you'll be hard pressed to find a mechanic that won't work on it, parts will be plentiful and cheaper because I feel like lots of things were less bespoke to each manufacturer around that time frame. Plus they didn't have a computer connected to every little thing. And theres junkyards for big parts.
If you have your own tools (or a friend with them) there will be a cheap shop manual you can get (like Haynes) and/or a plethora of youtube videos on how to fix and maintain it.
The price of ownership might be higher but the cost of entry will be significantly less. Not that everyone can or is willing to do the above but there is a middle ground that doesn't involve junkers.
melfie
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •So, the options I see here are:
None of these are great options.
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mybuttnolie
in reply to melfie • • •remote_control_conor
in reply to mybuttnolie • • •melfie
in reply to mybuttnolie • • •Jhex
in reply to mybuttnolie • • •dan1101
in reply to Jhex • • •mrgoosmoos
in reply to Jhex • • •Jarix
in reply to melfie • • •Yes but if you start building that kind of community they will stop being janky.
It's honestly a good place to start.
As people learn how to do it, and discover all the landmines of doing it, that will clear the path fire the next generation of modders and custom work. This would create an opportunity for new markets.
I mean just look at where 3d printing is today. It's great how far that enthusiast culture has grown and developed. No reason it can't continue.
Sand things like the Slate truck that is intentionally developed for you to modify, could accelerate that exact community.
Honestly if you can get me the funding, I'll start this community myself
FG_3479
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •akakevbot
in reply to FG_3479 • • •Pretty sure many of the cars sold now have a SIM card or something similar which the manufacturer pays for up front. I don't think it takes much for them to ping periodically with the information they'd like to track and this ensures they get the data.
Still, don't connect your car to the Internet, as that could give them way more data but I doubt that that doing that alone will completely stop the tracking.
Edit: typo
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mic_check_one_two
in reply to FG_3479 • • •In modern cars you’d need to actually rip the dashboard apart and cut the power to the built-in eSIM cellular antenna. Cars these days use cell towers to phone home, not just Wifi. And oftentimes, disconnecting that cellular connection will also disable major features of the car (like the radio and Bluetooth, which you claim will work just fine) because it’s all integrated on the same circuit board.
In some cases your car will even fucking throw error codes that will cause you to fail a state inspection. Meaning you’re forced to reconnect it before you can pass inspection and update your car registration. And nobody wants to take the time or effort to rip their dashboard apart every year for inspection. Auto manufacturers know this, and it’s exactly why they do it as a deterrent.
suitmangray
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Gonzako
in reply to suitmangray • • •ayyy
in reply to Gonzako • • •mctoasterson
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •On the technological side of things, you're pretty much fucked no matter what. Virtually all car companies now have proprietary app integrations, partnerships with Google and Apple, and other anti-privacy features.
Some practical things you can do-
Opt out of as much data collection and sharing as you can. Read the manual and menu dive to disable optional features you don't need.
If you finance or lease from the dealer, there are likely additional data disclosures and third party sharing that you can opt out of. Read all the paperwork when you sign your purchase or lease documents. In my case I had to literally fill out and mail something in (they don't want it to be easy to opt-out because they make money from sharing the data with third parties).
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Gonzako
in reply to mctoasterson • • •like this
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PearOfJudes
in reply to Gonzako • • •Sam_Bass
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •mic_check_one_two
in reply to Sam_Bass • • •There’s always a trade-off in some way, though. For instance, Toyota is one of the best in regards to keeping physical controls. But they’re basically the worst offender in regards to data privacy. “Insist” is fine on paper, but (unless you’re a millionaire who can afford a custom-built car) you’re inevitably going to have to purchase one on the existing market. And the existing market is all about digital controls and privacy violations.
Saying “just don’t get one that has those things” is a little like saying “just don’t get a house that catches on fire” after a wildfire rips through an area. It’s not exactly up to the customer, and the average person could never hope to afford the custom work that those kinds of requirements would entail.
xthexder
in reply to mic_check_one_two • • •RohanWillAnswer
in reply to xthexder • • •Jarix
in reply to RohanWillAnswer • • •Watch a lot of the car renovation shows.
You can have an old car completely renovated for like 30k
That's cheaper than just about any brand new car.
And you can keep buying old cars. You just are limited in selection.
I know one mechanic who converted an old Chevy S10 into an electric vehicle. It cost also about 30k and that was 13 years ago. He could do it easier, cheaper and better with today's parts availability.
These are in Canadian prices
WoodScientist
in reply to Jarix • • •After rebuilding it, you drive your new 30k EV out of its refit garage. Pulling out into the road, you immediately get hit by someone using their cell phone, totalling your car.
The insurance company offers you $5k for your vehicle, as they value it as a twenty year old used car on a rebuilt title.
These things are never that simple.
Jarix
in reply to WoodScientist • • •... No that's not how it works if you don't want it to.
He said he paid about 120 dollars extra for some specific type of coverage due to the custom nature of the work on his insurance and when it did get into a collision, he got more than it cost him to repair it.
He did that project as a curiosity and used it as a shop vehicle, and it got a lot of use iirc
RohanWillAnswer
in reply to Jarix • • •“Okay all of society: only buy old cards from now on and retrofit them for 30k and find special insurance to cover them!”
It didn’t work.
Jarix
in reply to RohanWillAnswer • • •HiddenLayer555
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •Buy a train ticket with cash? Not guaranteed to be fully "private" in the cyberpunk shithole we live in but presumably more private than a car.
On that note, fuck every transit agency (including TransLink in Vancouver) who make it more expensive to buy tickets with cash compared to a transit card. And especially fuck you if your transit card system is a P3 with the data handled by a private company (again, including TransLink). You're probably paying the money they thought they could have made selling your commute data to advertisers.
Bonus non privacy related rant: TransLink, the Earth and our decedents also say fuck you for using plastic RFID cards even for single journey tickets that will get promptly thrown in the trash when they expire in 90 minutes instead of a simple piece of paper that can biodegrade. They even waste more resources to wrap the plastic in paper to give the illusion of the ticket being made of paper when it absolutely is not. Yeah make single use
... Show more...Buy a train ticket with cash? Not guaranteed to be fully "private" in the cyberpunk shithole we live in but presumably more private than a car.
On that note, fuck every transit agency (including TransLink in Vancouver) who make it more expensive to buy tickets with cash compared to a transit card. And especially fuck you if your transit card system is a P3 with the data handled by a private company (again, including TransLink). You're probably paying the money they thought they could have made selling your commute data to advertisers.
Bonus non privacy related rant: TransLink, the Earth and our decedents also say fuck you for using plastic RFID cards even for single journey tickets that will get promptly thrown in the trash when they expire in 90 minutes instead of a simple piece of paper that can biodegrade. They even waste more resources to wrap the plastic in paper to give the illusion of the ticket being made of paper when it absolutely is not. Yeah make single use microcomputers and antennas why don't you? Can't have transit being too eco friendly after all. They're not futuristic, future generations will curse us for being so barbarically wasteful of precious resources while digging those RFID tickets out of landfills to extract silicon and metal from. Just print QR codes on normal paper tickets for god sake since the RFID cards probably only store a single unique ID that needs to be looked up against a database anyway, or better yet, just have coin slots on the fare gates and skip giving you a ticket altogether. Oh wait, but then they wouldn't able to know which station you get off at and refuse to let you out until you've paid the upcharge for having the audacity to ride a fully automated train system even one station outside your home city.
geneva_convenience
in reply to HiddenLayer555 • • •HiddenLayer555
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •So do roads, and your metal cage literally has a code on a plaque tied directly to your government ID, with a retroreflective background and each character carefully engineered to be machine readable from any angle and lighting. Hell, a good number of the cars you pass have 360 degree camera arrays pointed directly in your windows, or if you spring for a higher end model with all the features, you get the privilege of a camera pointed straight at your face and at your passengers' faces.
Also, you can cover your face on transit with something like a medical mask and sunglasses. If you try covering your license plate you'll literally get arrested.
LemmyKnowsBest
in reply to HiddenLayer555 • • •HiddenLayer555
in reply to LemmyKnowsBest • • •I mean, compared to what? Picking your nose on transit? The people sitting across from you is probably a bigger source of "spying" (and judgment) than the cameras in that case. IMO if you're okay with being spied on in your car you really don't have much more to worry about on a train or in a station.
I further submit that cars, being your personal space but still very much "in public," give you much more of an illusion of privacy while in most cases being just as if not more invasive than transit.
Also, if we're talking only the transit or road system and not the spying at your destination, driving gives much more precise location data than transit. They'll know which exact house or building you pulled up to compared to which train station or bus stop you get off at. And if you do consider all surveillance, then they can figure out where you're going even if you walk because there will be cameras at your destination.
LemmyKnowsBest
in reply to HiddenLayer555 • • •atmorous
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •I'm actually prototyping some designs for making open source vehicles/transportation. The only way this stops is more people advocating for more privacy laws, & for more open source transportation/vehicles becoming a thing worldwide
Just like it is for laptops/phones and Social Media via Linux, FOSS, & Open Source
stupid_asshole69 [none/use name]
in reply to PearOfJudes • • •You can’t! Even if you don’t use the cell phone based connections the car still has its own systems to wirelessly transmit data out.
You could yank the fuses associated with the cellular antennas but they’re attached to other electrical systems you’d want like the radio in every case I’ve experienced.
Also the data will be locally cached and can be collected when serviced or cause strange failures when it fills up the cars storage space. If considerate, smart engineers designed the car, they’d have different actual systems for the ecu, mcu, tcu and what have you but I’ve encountered one electric where it’s all in one.
So that’s scary.
Don’t buy a car made before 2007 and don’t buy an electric unless you know exactly what you’re doing I guess.
Or treat driving like a surveilled activity you partake of in public.
geneva_convenience
in reply to stupid_asshole69 [none/use name] • • •