GrapheneOS Foundation Discusses History Of Phoney Privacy Companies Targeting The Project
cross-posted from: lemmy.ml/post/45061709
There are at least a dozen people spending at least several hours attacking GrapheneOS across platforms on a daily basis. It's a very strange situation. How do these people have so much time and dedication to keep making posts across platforms attacking us? It's relentless.Every day, dozens of new accounts join our chat rooms to spread the same fabrications about GrapheneOS including via direct messages.
On Hacker News, one of the accounts making personal attacks based on fabrications in most threads about GrapheneOS has been doing it for 8 years.
Y Combinator has a financial stake in numerous surveillance and exploit development companies. Hacker News is a platform they own and the moderators on it have permitted years of vile harassment towards our team which they'd normally remove if others were targeted.
Hacker News mods micromanage it enough to repeatedly ask us not to reuse a bit of text across our comments. Meanwhile, they do nothing about disgusting personal attacks and harassment content consistently being spread in threads about GrapheneOS on their heavily moderated site.
The largest privacy community on Reddit /r/privacy bans any discussion or mentions of GrapheneOS. A bot automatically removes any post mentioning GrapheneOS they'll very actively ban people who evade their filters. The mods of the subreddit misrepresent this as something we want.
Many privacy subreddits have mods who are hostile towards GrapheneOS. We were banned from posting on /r/Android for multiple years. The mod who banned us said our official project account on Reddit was ban evading because they once unjustifiably banned one of our team members.
On Wikipedia, a company attacking GrapheneOS project made years of edits to the site pushing false narratives about us. They cited articles based on their own press releases. Other content was made paraphrasing Wikipedia which ended up being cited by it. It continues to this day.
Articles about GrapheneOS on most platforms often have comments engaging in baseless personal attacks towards our team, linking to harassment content and making many clearly inaccurate claims about it. We've found chat rooms coordinating this including attacks on the X platform.
Privacy projects are more vulnerable to these attacks because the userbase and supporters largely avoid social media and other platforms where it happens. Many people believe what they read on social media if it isn't countered and it builds echo chambers hostile to GrapheneOS.
Many people think these must be state sponsored attacks. However, our experience is these attacks are primarily orchestrated by companies selling dubious products marketed as private and secure. We did get targeted by state sponsored smear campaigns in France and Spain though.
PiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •like this
potatoguy likes this.
DJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •DJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •When someone says "This is informative, and unfortunate." and the response is "you'll be banned if you don't remove support for Techlore and there will be information published about your attacks on me in support of an abusive person, it is reality, you chose to attack the project this way, abusive people and their supporters aren't welcome anymore, you're complicit in the harassment and swatting attacks on me." (basically confirming all the crap from the video the person reacted too), is your standing really "improving" among RATIONAL people?
Nope, it only increase the cult support.
I never seen a single person talking shit about GrapheneOS (although devs claim that all the time), what people can't stand is that dev who is constantly attacking every other project around, and this is very well documented, and then playing the victim saying he is being persecuted, and constantly creating all this drama like a fucking child. GrapheneOS l
... Show more...When someone says "This is informative, and unfortunate." and the response is "you'll be banned if you don't remove support for Techlore and there will be information published about your attacks on me in support of an abusive person, it is reality, you chose to attack the project this way, abusive people and their supporters aren't welcome anymore, you're complicit in the harassment and swatting attacks on me." (basically confirming all the crap from the video the person reacted too), is your standing really "improving" among RATIONAL people?
Nope, it only increase the cult support.
I never seen a single person talking shit about GrapheneOS (although devs claim that all the time), what people can't stand is that dev who is constantly attacking every other project around, and this is very well documented, and then playing the victim saying he is being persecuted, and constantly creating all this drama like a fucking child. GrapheneOS literally loses support because of it - right there two big channels that actively promoted and donated to GrapheneOS dropped it. And then there is you, a "rational" person fueling this fucking childish drama too? GrapheneOS is great when they are silent, the reason they are banned everywhere is because no RATIONAL person wants to deal with their crap. They aren't against the project, but against this quarreling which the only constant is a single dev team, and why again are you bringing this drama here?
for other readers who want context, these are the "baseless" "defamatory" material they complain about:
- YouTube
www.youtube.comDJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •You're literally talking shit about them right now, and promoting a goddanged youtube channel like I'm going to actually switch my audio track away from music so that a guy can complain in my headphones, or something. I could not give a fuck about >86% of what you just typed if someone put a gun in my mouth. This is how people who wish they could be in court but would get smoked talk. Publishing information about people's attacks on you is called a response, which is allowed IMO. I'll permit it! People online aren't your students hitting each other. Pretending it's their problem because you made it your problem with them is mindboggling to me. Better listening material for you, while we're posting You Tubes: Popol Vuh – In den Gärten Pharaos.
The optics of silence in the face of your critics is... what? In other words, I rebuke you demon
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music.youtube.comPiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •That's exactly what those two videos are about, they are responses. If you could not give a fuck, then why again are you posting the drama here?
DJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •That unlike Micay claims, are full of screenshots showing the real conversations and what that guy that accuses everyone of persecuting him actually does (there is even a hilarious screenshot of a dev acc on their matrix chat telling people to use voip to create Twitter accs to harass another project and if they don't they would get banned from the chat... shit they accuse other projects of doing lol), all their claims of persecution by techlore was because they did one benchmark video where they recommended GrapheneOS over CalyxOS despite CalyxOS performing better for not being so hardened, but somehow they went mental and called the video slander campaign trying to destroy their project and shit... but it's your choice to stay ignorant and bring the drama that guy causes for... I have no idea what for, probably just ignorance, because those familiar with his history know it's all bullshit. Have a fun life.
DJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to DJ Putler • • •Had to check what's Keemstar, you are trying to make fun of Youtube to the wrong person because I have never followed any channel and I don't know any Youtube personalities, I was already a bit too old to care about trends when Youtube became mainstream, the only two videos of those two channels I posted I have watched are those exact two videos I posted here because they are RESPONSES to GrapheneOS' drama people like you keep bringing to tech communities. It wasn't me that made a post about GrapheneOS drama, you are the one bringing that bullshit here and then dismiss objective proof that it's just bullshit drama and want to play the mature, you are pathetic, go fuck yourself - don't bother replying because I already blocked you so I won't see your shit anymore. Goodbye.
for mods: I already saved you the trouble and quit the communities I was following in this instance.
DJ Putler
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •WhyJiffie
in reply to DJ Putler • • •DJ Putler
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •Auli
in reply to DJ Putler • • •DJ Putler
in reply to Auli • • •Luke
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •That's not a fair statement to make. As published in their FAQ, developer time is not what's lacking in the effort to support more devices:
DJ Putler
in reply to Luke • • •sinextitan
in reply to PiraHxCx • • •PiraHxCx
in reply to sinextitan • • •They also seem to have no comprehension of Threat Model and constantly call other distros fake/phoney, "dubious" privacy OS. If GrapheneOS was a Linux distro they would be saying Arch is not really secure because they don't compartmentalize and sandbox every application and blah blah blah, none of the drama comes from GrapheneOS technical aspects, it's all from their toxic community.
I'm pretty sure that if they saw my four comments here, they would dub me as "dozen people spending at least several hours a... Show more...
They also seem to have no comprehension of Threat Model and constantly call other distros fake/phoney, "dubious" privacy OS. If GrapheneOS was a Linux distro they would be saying Arch is not really secure because they don't compartmentalize and sandbox every application and blah blah blah, none of the drama comes from GrapheneOS technical aspects, it's all from their toxic community.
I'm pretty sure that if they saw my four comments here, they would dub me as "dozen people spending at least several hours attacking GrapheneOS across platforms on a daily basis" as well, "orchestrated by companies selling dubious products marketed as private and secure".
ki9
in reply to DJ Putler • • •DJ Putler
in reply to ki9 • • •Voxel
in reply to ki9 • • •krolden
in reply to DJ Putler • • •I love how strcat never posts any links to these things and just goes on these multi post rants.
I see it as a good thing because he makes a very paranoid android.
a_fancy_kiwi
in reply to DJ Putler • • •These posts do more to make me not want to use GrapheneOS than any other person or entity. This has got to be a psyop. I refuse to believe any one can possibly be this much of a bitch.
Make your OS and rest on its merits instead of crying about it 🤷♂️
Bloefz
in reply to a_fancy_kiwi • • •Daniel strcat the top dev is unfortunately super paranoid. He really thinks everyone is out to get him and he goes on long crusades on the net that drag on and on and that's why he gets banned. People just get tired of it. There's long videos of all his persecution claims being debunked.
Last year he took a step back when it got too much but he seems to be back in full swing lately. He's a good developer and technically very strong but he really needs to chill. Even his strongest supporters like Louis Rossman had to drop him.
I think what caused it was his partner swindling him during the time of CopperheadOS but really this is not cool.
Having said that, grapheneos is the strongest on security and privacy by far. It's just sad to see all the unnecessary drama around it and yes it does put people off.
cdzero
in reply to Bloefz • • •f3nyx
in reply to cdzero • • •krolden
in reply to Bloefz • • •Anon518
in reply to Bloefz • • •Citation?
Bloefz
in reply to Anon518 • • •- YouTube
m.youtube.comkrolden
in reply to a_fancy_kiwi • • •glitching
in reply to DJ Putler • • •I am a grapheneOS hater. I carry a deep seated resentment towards them and use every opportunity to shit on the project. as far as I know, nobody's paying me to hate on them nor have I received any instructions on how to be a better hater and whatnot, I do alla that shit for free.
the idea that the only way I can not get assraped on the reg is to give a shitload of money to google and then use this elitist OS is something I have a gigantic problem with.
my whole infra - desktopS, laptopS, phoneS, tablet - doesn't break $200 in total. 10-20 years old tech, running the latest software, as secure and feature-rich as I want it to be. gibson's "street finds its own uses for things" in vivo, that's what democratizing tech should be like.
instituting an artificial entry barrier of multiples of that for one device is fucking preposterous. the "refurbished" route advocated for poor folks is a) phantasm, no such thing exists, them is used phones and b) for stuff that someone rubbed, spat on, took to the shitter, dogknows what else, the pr
... Show more...I am a grapheneOS hater. I carry a deep seated resentment towards them and use every opportunity to shit on the project. as far as I know, nobody's paying me to hate on them nor have I received any instructions on how to be a better hater and whatnot, I do alla that shit for free.
the idea that the only way I can not get assraped on the reg is to give a shitload of money to google and then use this elitist OS is something I have a gigantic problem with.
my whole infra - desktopS, laptopS, phoneS, tablet - doesn't break $200 in total. 10-20 years old tech, running the latest software, as secure and feature-rich as I want it to be. gibson's "street finds its own uses for things" in vivo, that's what democratizing tech should be like.
instituting an artificial entry barrier of multiples of that for one device is fucking preposterous. the "refurbished" route advocated for poor folks is a) phantasm, no such thing exists, them is used phones and b) for stuff that someone rubbed, spat on, took to the shitter, dogknows what else, the price is $50, not fucking multiples of that.
if they made a non-TPM-hardware-backed gos-lite, I'd shut the fuck about it. if the only users for gos were people liberating their pixels, I'd shut the fuck up about it. if it was some jason bournes that need alla that evil-maid & friends shit, I'd shut the fuck up about it.
but clueless influenzos push this idiotic narrative that that's the only possible way to escape google's clutches because it makes for an easy video and so this crap persists.
gos verily has more privacy protections than lineageOS. but the latter is more than enough for the 99% of users that ain't got fucking 5eyes after them - a lost or stolen device don't compromise you and you're free from the apple/google duopoly, not to mention, you're repurposing shit meant for the landfill.
if you thing gos is a such an awesome idea, that'd be like if linux could run only on thinkpads and only on the most recent models. would you be into it?
this diatribe in OP don't make me reconsider any of my positions, and as denpok singh wisely stated "hate in the hands of the enlightened can be a tool for great change"
in conclusion, gos hater for life, peace.
DJ Putler
in reply to glitching • • •LineageOS is chill IDK why you think having extreme device security doesn't matter to people, in many corporate settings it's worthwhile. Probably undermined by Google anyways, but that can never be admitted in COURT. I run LineageOS on a Pixel with a bunch of shit changed for privacy, used to have GOS, the Pixel was the best option on Swappa! I take a lotta pics 👀. I find the GOS forums a useful resource and I hate everyone they hate so it works out dawg. Yeah, structurally bound to Google and the US chip infrastructure is bad. Get Chinese shit. I just need my FDroid shit to live, that's what really binds me to Google's ecosystem.
Don't forget to mention GrapheneOS gets to keep all their fingers and ears because the feds use their stuff. Think they can't get into a Google device? I just don't believe it. Peace indeed
LedgeDrop
in reply to glitching • • •I do use a (modded) version of graphene as a daily driver and I do appreciate many of the features that it offer.
And I totally agree that some people seem to try to turn graphene into some rigid cult (especially on the philosophy of running root and "who decides how application backup should be made? The application developer or the device/data owner")
That said:
There is actually a technical reason for this. Pixel phones are the only ones to support custom AvB keys.
Basically, this allows you (or graphene) to create a key, which can be used to sign your custom firmware. So, you can have a locked bootloader that will only allow OS updates signed with your key.
You can basically create your own OTA updates. It's fantastic.
It's amazing an
... Show more...I do use a (modded) version of graphene as a daily driver and I do appreciate many of the features that it offer.
And I totally agree that some people seem to try to turn graphene into some rigid cult (especially on the philosophy of running root and "who decides how application backup should be made? The application developer or the device/data owner")
That said:
There is actually a technical reason for this. Pixel phones are the only ones to support custom AvB keys.
Basically, this allows you (or graphene) to create a key, which can be used to sign your custom firmware. So, you can have a locked bootloader that will only allow OS updates signed with your key.
You can basically create your own OTA updates. It's fantastic.
It's amazing and disappointing that most phone manufacturers don't allow custom AvB keys, but it's a reflection of how they truly don't care about people who like to tinker.
Now, should the lack of custom AvB keys be a barrier towards using graphene? Tbh, I don't think so - but it does fit the graphene rigid MO of "root is bad".
edit : fixed link
GitHub - chenxiaolong/avbroot: Tool for manipulating and re-signing Android A/B OTAs
GitHubWhyJiffie
in reply to LedgeDrop • • •that's not true. Fairphones and certain Motorolas have supported that for years. check the calyxos device support page. all of them supports it.
GitHub - chenxiaolong/avbroot: Tool for manipulating and re-signing Android A/B OTAs
GitHubDraconic NEO
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •It also could be that Google pays them to only support Pixels, although that's a bit more conspiratorial.
f3nyx
in reply to Draconic NEO • • •without going too in depth:
Google and apple have the most money, they create the best hardware (relevant in this case for the hardware root of trust)
A privacy focused individual should also be concerned about security to some degree, making the hardware root of trust a high priority.
Apple locks down their boot process too rigidly to load a new OS without compromising that security.
that's why we're left with Pixels as the only option. Apparently Motorola will be on the table soon. I have no experience with their chip design so I'm curious to see what they release.
WhyJiffie
in reply to f3nyx • • •to some degree, which does not warrant mandating the highest known level of hardware security.
f3nyx
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •absolutely. we all have to individually decide our priorities in an era where our choices are incredibly limited.
my choice is to have as rock solid of a foundation as possible, so that every step afterwards is harder to compromise. that choice will not be the same for everybody depending on their starting motivations and end-goal posture.
simply sharing where my experience has informed my opinion.
WhyJiffie
in reply to Draconic NEO • • •krolden
in reply to glitching • • •Voxel
in reply to DJ Putler • • •DJ Putler
in reply to Voxel • • •Voxel
in reply to DJ Putler • • •I've read almost every drama-related post from the official GrapheneOS account since I researched this whole thing.
And they almost NEVER provide sources. The only exceptions I can think of right now were the cases with Rob Braxman and the French newsletter. That's the only time they actually provided a source.
DJ Putler
in reply to Voxel • • •Vladyslav
in reply to DJ Putler • • •