My Car Is Becoming a Brick: EVs are poised to age like smartphones.
Cars used to be entirely mechanical objects. With hard work and expertise, basically any old vehicle could be restored and operated: On YouTube, you can watch a man drive a 1931 Alvis to McDonald’s. But the car itself was stuck in time. If the automaker added a feature to the following year’s model, you just didn’t get it. Things have changed. My Model 3 has few dials or buttons; nearly every feature is routed through the giant central touch screen. It’s not just Tesla: Many new cars—and especially electric cars—are now stuffed with software, receiving over-the-air updates to fix bugs, tweak performance, or add new functionality.In other words, your car is a lot like an iPhone (so much so that in the auto industry, describing EVs as “smartphones on wheels” has become a go-to cliché.) This has plenty of advantages—the improved navigation, the fart noises—but it also means that your car may become worse because the software is outdated, not because the parts break. Even top-of-the-line phones are destined to become obsolete—still able to perform the basic functions like phone calls and texts, but stuck with an old operating system and failing apps. The same struggle is now coming for cars.
Software-dependent cars are still new enough that it’s unclear how they will age. “It’s becoming the ethos of the industry that everyone’s promising a continually evolving car, and we don’t yet know how they’re going to pull that off,” Sean Tucker, a senior editor at Kelley Blue Book, told me. “Cars last longer than technology does.” The problem with cars as smartphones on wheels is that these two machines live and die on very different timescales. Many Americans trade in their phone every year and less than 30 percent keep an iPhone for longer than three years, but the average car on the road is nearly 13 years old. (Tesla didn’t respond to a request for comment about how its cars age.)
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dom
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •like this
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scytale
in reply to dom • • •like this
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Em Adespoton
in reply to scytale • • •Regular cars have been increasingly slaved to the on-board computer since the 1990s though.
You can only buy a few modern cars that don’t send constant telemetry back to the manufacturer, for example — just like televisions.
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Rhaedas
in reply to Em Adespoton • • •There's different levels of computerized control though. Would fuel injection and other modern efficiency and safety systems be possible without a main computer? I wouldn't trade my days with simple mechanical cars and carburetors from the learning experience, but I also wouldn't go back if I had a choice.
The line crossed was being connected to work, not computers themselves. I agree that the modern car market is a minefield in whether or not there's anything you could get that isn't dependent in some way on being online. Buy used, there's still stuff out there that will give long life, has been tested by the first owners, and doesn't have the manufacturer's grip on it.
artyom
in reply to scytale • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to artyom • • •artyom
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •Asetru
in reply to scytale • • •That's literally their point?
These don't exist anymore. If they do, it doesn't matter if they move by burning fossils or electricity. It's not a matter of EVs being movable smart devices that will be left behind eventually, it's a matter of cars being like that.
[deleted]
in reply to dom • • •Cars in general have rigorous software testing that means the last update will run fine indefinitely, and most of the updates only change nice to have features, not core operations like the engine and drive train.
EVs are pushing the envelope by having some software updates that directly change how the battery and drive train work. Tesla is the one I hear going completely in on subpar testing for updates to critical components. I don't know if other manufacturers are doing nearly as much as Tesla is, so it might even be a Tesla problem more than an EV problem at this point, but as time goes on others will become more bold with increasing numbers of updates and lazier testing because it worked out for Tesla's market share.
An EV that doesn't have constant software updates can easily exist, and they should work fine until the frame falls apart. I think a portion of the EV market falls into that category, but don't really know for certain.
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GreenCrunch
in reply to dom • • •yeah, you can't really buy a car that doesn't have mobile data for "telemetry" (your driving data is sold to insurance companies)
even base trims get some phone app stuff, meaning there's the ability to execute commands on the car. so, if they really wanted, there's nothing stopping automakers from bricking your car, gas or EV, because they feel like it.
yipee...
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flatbield
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •Over bloan. Software does not age but security does. Other things that do not age well is specialty tech hardware components. Batteries are a question too.
I know my volt at 10 years does not have a viable oem battery replacement (back ordered and nutty price). I can get a reasonable after market battery though.
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BlameThePeacock
in reply to flatbield • • •A) Your car is not an EV. It's a Hybrid.
B) All hybrid cars were/are bad investments.
You take a car, make it more complicated by adding an entire second power and drive system, and then expect it to not cost a fortune to maintain later?
Fucking stupidity.
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noodles
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •like this
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BlameThePeacock
in reply to noodles • • •noodles
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to noodles • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •BlameThePeacock
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •And then it will become more expensive to maintain than the gas version the year after, and worth less at resale because of a degraded battery or some shit.
Also, brakes are not a primary cost in ownership of a vehicle.
Math is fun, but you need to do a total cost of ownership calculation, not a cost to date calculation.
Full electric is simply better math.
SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •Dude, you should tell all the taxi companies in San Francisco they are stupid.
There have been hybrids since 1997, many are on roads after 20 years. You will not see a 15 year old Tesla.
There is an entire worldwide industry of EV conversions fueled by the plentiful amount of Tesla motors from wreckers.
16 years on hybrids and your demons have not affected me.
BlameThePeacock
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •Taxi companies don't keep specific vehicles for 20 years, they wear out long before then. Keeping them maintained to pass inspection at that point would be a costly nightmare.
The first Tesla only came out 17 years ago, and it was a 2-door sports car... so yea it's not really surprising you wouldn't see 15 year old Teslas regularly. They do exist though. The Model S has only been out for 13 years, and there are definitely still first run Model S vehicles driving around. There are 8 from that original year for sale on Autotrader.com right now, all in running condition.
There are only 2 Prius C from 2012, and 2 more Prius V from the same year. Those were the first years of each of those models as well, just like the Tesla.
I think Teslas are shit though. They're designer brand electric cars, poor quality, and they make zero financial sense at all compared to full EV models from the likes of Hyundai, Kia, or VW.
Also, like I said in an other comment, Taxis are not driven the same way that a regular person drives their car. Hybrids are absolutely perfect for th
... Show more...Taxi companies don't keep specific vehicles for 20 years, they wear out long before then. Keeping them maintained to pass inspection at that point would be a costly nightmare.
The first Tesla only came out 17 years ago, and it was a 2-door sports car... so yea it's not really surprising you wouldn't see 15 year old Teslas regularly. They do exist though. The Model S has only been out for 13 years, and there are definitely still first run Model S vehicles driving around. There are 8 from that original year for sale on Autotrader.com right now, all in running condition.
There are only 2 Prius C from 2012, and 2 more Prius V from the same year. Those were the first years of each of those models as well, just like the Tesla.
I think Teslas are shit though. They're designer brand electric cars, poor quality, and they make zero financial sense at all compared to full EV models from the likes of Hyundai, Kia, or VW.
Also, like I said in an other comment, Taxis are not driven the same way that a regular person drives their car. Hybrids are absolutely perfect for the Taxi driving use case. They make almost no sense when used once a day to go to work, and then hit the grocery store and gym on the way home.
flatbield
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to flatbield • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to BlameThePeacock • • •Almost as fucking stupid as not looking up the long term reliability on a Prius, or a Volt. There's good reasons why city cab companies buy them.
BlameThePeacock
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •Cabs don't drive like you do. Neither based on distance driven, nor the constant stop and go driving that optimizes hybrid use case.
Full electric is better for a lot of taxi locations, which is why a lot of Cab companies are now starting to switch their fleets over.
Even Uber ditched it's Uber Green branding for Uber Electric.
Every single Waymo on the road is fully electric at this point after they phased out their hybrid units a couple years ago.
TachyonTele
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •All communication disregarded.
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andyburke
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NoneOfUrBusiness
in reply to TachyonTele • • •TachyonTele
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entropicdrift
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NoneOfUrBusiness
in reply to entropicdrift • • •GreyEyedGhost
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •PabloSexcrowbar
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •That's when I bought mine, and it was either get a Model 3 with ~270 miles of range or a Nissan Leaf or a tiny BMW iQ, both with like 80.
For the record, if the software updates stopped where they're at today, I'd be fine with how the car functions until the end of its life. In fact, I kinda wish they'd just leave things alone at this point because I don't want any extra features out of the thing.
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MalReynolds
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •And therein lies the rub, you don't get to choose, the corpo does and you have to trust them (you do trust them, don't you?). Pretty much like you're renting, not owning. As the article points out this is similar to phone 'ownership', hopefully in the fullness of time there will be a GrapheneOS equivalent for cars...
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Vodulas [they/them]
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •PabloSexcrowbar
in reply to Vodulas [they/them] • • •Vodulas [they/them]
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •PabloSexcrowbar
in reply to Vodulas [they/them] • • •Vodulas [they/them]
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •PabloSexcrowbar
in reply to Vodulas [they/them] • • •Vodulas [they/them]
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •Pandantic [they/them]
in reply to Vodulas [they/them] • • •I had a Bolt. We made Chevy buy it back because some had been exploding/catching fire and they were advising us not to leave it unsupervised while charging and to park at least 50 feet away from buildings and cars. I loved my Bolt and wished we could have kept it, but that all seemed unreasonable, and I didn’t want to have the potential of my house catching on fire because I needed to charge it overnight.
After that, I bought a Tesla. Downvote me if you want, but it was the next best option.
Vodulas [they/them]
in reply to Pandantic [they/them] • • •Yup, there have been a lot of battery issues with electric cars. The good news is those seem to be few and far between nowadays.
I can't and I wouldn't anyway. Before we knew Elon was a fascist, they were usually a good option (provided you got one from a good run). We bought a used Tesla in 2016. It was a great car, but when someone sideswiped it and totaled it in 2020, we could not in good conscious get another one.
Ŝan • 𐑖ƨɤ
in reply to PabloSexcrowbar • • •Asetru
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •Absolutely not.
I bought a BEV back then. It was a VW Golf. Still driving it. The leaf, eNiro and i3 were contenders for me.
Domi
in reply to Asetru • • •I bought a Model 3 SR+ in 2019 because it was pretty much the only decent option, also still driving it.
BYD and other Chinese brands were not available here yet and German manufacturers were asleep at the wheel.
The best coming out of Germany at that time were repurposed chassis from ICE cars, with all the flaws that brings. The Leaf lacked water cooling on the batteries.
The best alternative at that time was a classic Hyundai Ioniq but it had a 28 kWh battery where as the Model 3 SR+ had a 52 kWh battery for 10.000€ more.
Since you own an e-Golf, just to put some numbers on this. (e-Golf left, Model 3 SR+ right)
ev-database.org/car/1087/Volks…
ev-database.org/car/1485/Tesla…
Volkswagen e-Golf
EV DatabaseAsetru
in reply to Domi • • •Well, none of what you say is wrong. It's just not the point. There were other options besides tesla - and while they were different (e.g. I'm well aware of the small golf battery), they were there.
You say that for you it was the only decent option. Fine. But not the point. Maybe your usage profile warranted what tesla offered. But "Tesla was the only player in the EV scene back then" is just wrong. That's all I said.
SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to Asetru • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •Hoimo
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •skarn
in reply to entropicdrift • • •Yet
cassandrafatigue
in reply to NoneOfUrBusiness • • •philpo
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •Well, the AM transmitter in the old car won't work anymore as well.
Cars do age the same in terms of user experience - they are simply frozen in the state they are.
(And at least within the EU can be operated fully offline)
The author seems to be more concerned that his car might not get "new features" anymore - and that bothers hims as the "free update" culture is extending to a lot of things. Technology advances but nothing has changed about that - that was always the case and now we can at least update some things.
While I would love to have a carnaker offer a open source plattform that would make people able to update and modify the entertainment/navigation part of their car I actually spoke to a car makers product manager about it - and sadly the multitude of regulations cars fall under in their various markets makes that basically impossible.
More important would be that we campaign for other things in terms of laws (some are in place in the EU but are currently under pressure):
- Manufacturers need to provide security updates for online f
... Show more...Well, the AM transmitter in the old car won't work anymore as well.
Cars do age the same in terms of user experience - they are simply frozen in the state they are.
(And at least within the EU can be operated fully offline)
The author seems to be more concerned that his car might not get "new features" anymore - and that bothers hims as the "free update" culture is extending to a lot of things. Technology advances but nothing has changed about that - that was always the case and now we can at least update some things.
While I would love to have a carnaker offer a open source plattform that would make people able to update and modify the entertainment/navigation part of their car I actually spoke to a car makers product manager about it - and sadly the multitude of regulations cars fall under in their various markets makes that basically impossible.
More important would be that we campaign for other things in terms of laws (some are in place in the EU but are currently under pressure):
Megaman_EXE
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •If we can push towards green electricity generation, I would be up for an electric car. Where I live our electricity isn't green so it feels kind of...counter intuitive in a sense.
My main gripe with any new vehicle is touch screens. If there's a touch screen in the thing ima flip a table. Give me physical buttons please.
Oh I guess my secondary gripe is trying to make cars compact in ways that make it impossible difficult to work on yourself.
I want smaller cars, but I also want something that people can work on easily.
theneverfox
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to theneverfox • • •save_the_humans
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to save_the_humans • • •Noxy
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •Even if your power source is burning coal, it's still less harmful to drive an EV powered by coal than an ICE car powered by gasoline or diesel.
This oil and coal industry talking point has been debunked time and time again.
Hell, even Forbes of all outlets has an article about it: forbes.com/sites/mikescott/202…
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Megaman_EXE
in reply to Noxy • • •reksas
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •Texas_Hangover
in reply to reksas • • •reksas
in reply to Texas_Hangover • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to reksas • • •CanadaPlus
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •Jolteon
in reply to CanadaPlus • • •CanadaPlus
in reply to Jolteon • • •Putting aside from the implied EV context, I'm not sure I'd go that far. They were repairable, but had a lot of proprietary design in them as well.
I would still go with one of the "legacy" manufacturers for myself, though.
Noxy
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •like this
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causepix
in reply to Noxy • • •Yeah its whole thing is that software gets outdated but like ...?
A) The latest ICE vehicles are equally tech'd out the wazoo, infotainment is 1:1 and mechanically they've even phased out gear shifters for ones completely controlled by electronics.
B) Software doesn't just stop working, it's hardware that becomes obsolete. Windows XP still runs the same as it ever did on the right hardware. There are servers around from the 90s that are still running software written in programming languages that don't exist anymore. If you always run the same software on the same hardware (as you do in automotive; most vehicles don't require more than 1-2 OTA updates per year, purely for bug fixes, and each one has a unique build specifically made for its hardware) there's no reason the two should ever lose compatibility.
C) Reliability is a major factor, taken into account by OEMs, that isn't nearly as high stakes for other tech sectors. An $800 phone dies in a few years, so what, the buyer has most likely already moved on to the next generation. A $35K car dies in a f
... Show more...Yeah its whole thing is that software gets outdated but like ...?
A) The latest ICE vehicles are equally tech'd out the wazoo, infotainment is 1:1 and mechanically they've even phased out gear shifters for ones completely controlled by electronics.
B) Software doesn't just stop working, it's hardware that becomes obsolete. Windows XP still runs the same as it ever did on the right hardware. There are servers around from the 90s that are still running software written in programming languages that don't exist anymore. If you always run the same software on the same hardware (as you do in automotive; most vehicles don't require more than 1-2 OTA updates per year, purely for bug fixes, and each one has a unique build specifically made for its hardware) there's no reason the two should ever lose compatibility.
C) Reliability is a major factor, taken into account by OEMs, that isn't nearly as high stakes for other tech sectors. An $800 phone dies in a few years, so what, the buyer has most likely already moved on to the next generation. A $35K car dies in a few years, you've probably lost a good number of buyers for life and definitely screwed them over in terms of resale value. Phone OS crashes, whatever, just restart it. Automotive software fails, well people's lives could very easily be in jeopardy.
It's not the modular, one-size-fits-all, update-till-the-hardware-fails, move-fast-break-things approach taken in lower-stakes computing. To liken it to a smartphone is completely ridiculous.
noddy
in reply to causepix • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to noddy • • •EVs are full of stupid gadgetry to design in obsolescence, because the industry knows from GM Trolley buses and the EV1 these vehicles last a lot longer.
Noxy
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •skaffi
in reply to Noxy • • •Noxy
in reply to skaffi • • •like this
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MonkderVierte
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •Not at all. They die young.
nolikeymachine
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •SaveTheTuaHawk
in reply to nolikeymachine • • •17 million last year, 60 million in total globally. Where do you get your information.
sure they can. They support everyone having a toaster or a dryer.
300,000 -400,000 miles.
How many ICE cars make it to 400,000 miles?
This has been true in ICE for decades.
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nolikeymachine
in reply to SaveTheTuaHawk • • •skozzii
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •This article highlights a Tesla problem, not an EV problem.
The issue when you build a car around software is the software gets outdated and the the car is garbage.
Open sources EVs can be kept on the road just as easily as gas vehicles, as long as the gates are open to access the software.
Tesla has created their own issue, which will destroy them.
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HobbitFoot
in reply to skozzii • • •Other EV's have this problem too, so it isn't just a Tesla problem.
I think the main issue is what happens when software support ends. There are tons of industrial and medical equipment with outdated software that work well today, mainly because there is an air gap between their computers and the Internet. That air gap may need to be enforced onto cars as default in the future.
I Cast Fist
in reply to alyaza [they/she] • • •like this
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