Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered an in-person final; scores fell 50%
Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered an in-person final; scores fell 50%
AI cheating leads to "a failed society," professor says.Nate Anderson (Ars Technica)
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Dudewitbow
in reply to Chris Remington • • •Id hate to be a recruiter or interviewer for this generation of students
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Em Adespoton
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •like this
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wax
in reply to Em Adespoton • • •BCsven
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •They've already made it into the job roles.
I was helping somebody (a professional with a degree) on a software and they were, among other things, struggling to manually tally over ten items with the cursor as a pointer. They kept starting back at 1 and recounting. After many attempts they asked me to count the items for them.
So I had to stop helping and explain they needed to speak to their manager about the issues. π
OwOarchist
in reply to BCsven • • •BCsven
in reply to OwOarchist • • •OwOarchist
in reply to BCsven • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to BCsven • • •BCsven
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to BCsven • • •t3rmit3
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •like this
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DdCno1
in reply to t3rmit3 • • •I was hired during the pandemic and it was quite an interesting experience to get there. They had an online assessment center, several hours (with breaks) of all sorts of quizzes, questions and tasks, mostly intelligence and memory-related, combined with math, general knowledge, language proficiency and a section on personality and personal preferences, with a relatively limited focus on IT questions at the end that felt tacked on for the job. There was no surveillance during it - no webcam requirements or anything. They just sent me a link and I could complete this timed test at a point in time of my choosing, in one go. Since it wasn't very difficult at all and there was more than enough time, I had no issues with this one.
Before the interview, I was handed a 20 minute condensed version of largely the same type of questions to be completed in person (very small room, alone, under supervision, to eliminate any possibility of cheating), which I completed in no time, and finally an extensive interview (IIRC about 45 minutes) in front of what I can only describe as a tribunal
... Show more...I was hired during the pandemic and it was quite an interesting experience to get there. They had an online assessment center, several hours (with breaks) of all sorts of quizzes, questions and tasks, mostly intelligence and memory-related, combined with math, general knowledge, language proficiency and a section on personality and personal preferences, with a relatively limited focus on IT questions at the end that felt tacked on for the job. There was no surveillance during it - no webcam requirements or anything. They just sent me a link and I could complete this timed test at a point in time of my choosing, in one go. Since it wasn't very difficult at all and there was more than enough time, I had no issues with this one.
Before the interview, I was handed a 20 minute condensed version of largely the same type of questions to be completed in person (very small room, alone, under supervision, to eliminate any possibility of cheating), which I completed in no time, and finally an extensive interview (IIRC about 45 minutes) in front of what I can only describe as a tribunal of eight more or less relevant people sitting in a half-circle in front of a chair for the interviewee (at a distance due to COVID), most of which would just silently judge me with their eyes and take down notes as two to three of them switched between interrogating, I mean, interviewing me. They were actually very friendly, but it did feel quite intense. I was extremely nervous in the beginning, even stuttered a little, but as the interview went on, my nerves calmed down. None of the questions were surprising nor upsetting, but due to my initial nervousness, I still felt like I had failed.
Anyway, after they had hired me (I received a call about two weeks later), they later told me that they had done this twice with about 100 applicants each, just to hire a single person. In retrospect, I can't believe I successfully made it through all of this. I was very well prepared for the interview and had previously spent a lot of effort (several weeks worth) on the application itself, tailoring it to the job and the organization, but still.
If you have the amount of resources this large org has, I think this is a very thorough way of doing things. The simple method of repeating a portion of the test in person (with different questions, but the same kind as online) eliminates cheaters and can be done by an org of virtually any size. The lengthy interview in front of a diverse group I'm not so sure about though. With shy and nervous applicants (as well as those on the spectrum), this can be very overwhelming, but since they all have to find a consensus in the end, discrimination and personal preferences influencing the hiring decision are less likely to happen.
TranquilTurbulence
in reply to DdCno1 • • •DdCno1
in reply to TranquilTurbulence • • •TranquilTurbulence
in reply to DdCno1 • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to DdCno1 • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to t3rmit3 • • •OwOarchist
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •wax
in reply to OwOarchist • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to OwOarchist • • •OwOarchist
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •To grade multiple choice questions, right?
... right?
TheEighthDoctor
in reply to OwOarchist • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to OwOarchist • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to Dudewitbow • • •Senal
in reply to Chris Remington • • •Other than this hot take
It's an interesting read.
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tea
in reply to Senal • • •OwOarchist
in reply to Senal • • •Ivy League college students are, by definition, people who attend classes at an Ivy League university ... nothing more and nothing less.
If you want to claim they're anything other than that, you're using different arguments -- it can't be justified definitionally. You'd think someone who was actually intelligent might know that...
Zephorah
in reply to Chris Remington • • •like this
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xylol
in reply to Zephorah • • •To put it on your resume I guess
I had a guy who sat next to me when I took some community classes after work he would show up late and from the corner of my eye could see him scroll when I'd scroll and answer a question on quizes when I did.
I imagine he continued on and now makes more money than I do
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Zephorah
in reply to xylol • • •The amount of scorn for degrees here is spectacular.
Medicine happens, in part, by experience. Even so, would you want your doctor or nurse working on you either of those roles without their degree(s)?
Psychologist?
Your lawyer?
The engineer designing that bridge you cross every day?
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xylol
in reply to Zephorah • • •Zephorah
in reply to xylol • • •like this
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t3rmit3
in reply to Zephorah • • •The article is really discussing bachelor degrees, and this is mostly true for those. Masters and doctorate degrees (or med school or law school, etc) are where specialized learning that actually sets you up for specialized roles happens.
The pre-med student who stopped after getting their bachelor's is not meaningfully better prepared to be your doctor or psychologist than someone with no degree. You wouldn't trust either one.
Dudewitbow
in reply to Zephorah • • •like this
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Jul (they/she)
in reply to Zephorah • • •OwOarchist
in reply to Jul (they/she) • • •Fun fact: as long as you're not studying to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other professional with a governing/licensing body, you can just lie about it.
No employer has ever asked to actually see my diploma. No employer has ever requested a transcript from the school. And even if one does, what's the worst that can happen? You just won't get that specific job -- but you can keep on trying and applying to other jobs.
Tollana1234567
in reply to OwOarchist • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to Jul (they/she) • • •huey_m
in reply to Zephorah • • •Jason2357
in reply to Zephorah • • •40 years of telling kids a degree is a job ticket rather than explaining the value of a liberal arts education.
Every time I see k12 education discussion focused on "preparing kids for the job market" I cringe. Its the cart before the horse and just as agile.
Zephorah
in reply to Jason2357 • • •To be fair, jobs and degree value is 90% regional. There are states with less degrees and states with more degrees. The PNW, for example, has a glut of Bachelors degrees, meaning your Bachelors will give you very little if any traction for jobs. Why would it when there’s double digits in those degrees applying for every 1 job requiring one? Many Midwest, flyover states do not. When there’s no one applying to those degrees positions and then That One Guy shows up, he’s almost guaranteed at least a try in that position.
Sometimes you have to take your degree and move or it will hold little value. People don’t like to hear that, and that’s fair, but it’s also the reality.
You’ll have a cheaper house, cheaper COL, and be very competitive in a job in a flyover state, but because you don’t want to leave the city of Seattle or its surrounding beauty, you stay and bitch about it instead. Or San Francisco. Or [next high COL/housing place]. No one really likes Ohio or the ass end of Illinois but there are both job openings and chea
... Show more...To be fair, jobs and degree value is 90% regional. There are states with less degrees and states with more degrees. The PNW, for example, has a glut of Bachelors degrees, meaning your Bachelors will give you very little if any traction for jobs. Why would it when thereβs double digits in those degrees applying for every 1 job requiring one? Many Midwest, flyover states do not. When thereβs no one applying to those degrees positions and then That One Guy shows up, heβs almost guaranteed at least a try in that position.
Sometimes you have to take your degree and move or it will hold little value. People donβt like to hear that, and thatβs fair, but itβs also the reality.
Youβll have a cheaper house, cheaper COL, and be very competitive in a job in a flyover state, but because you donβt want to leave the city of Seattle or its surrounding beauty, you stay and bitch about it instead. Or San Francisco. Or [next high COL/housing place]. No one really likes Ohio or the ass end of Illinois but there are both job openings and cheaper housing there.
An in-law earned a safety degree. They could stay in their state for $80k or move to a degree bereft state, with cheaper houses even, for $125k. They moved, and on the companyβs dime.
Some of whatβs happening here is based in the human principle of: I donβt wanna.. βDonβt wannaβ rules the day most of the time.
Donβt wanna keeps you in a crowded expensive place bitching about your finances.
Tollana1234567
in reply to Zephorah • • •Zephorah
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •Iβve not voted for a conservative president, ever. Xennial.
Cities have more jobs by the numbers, yes, but do they have more job openings able to accommodate all the people in those cities?
The main point is location matters with degrees.
Tollana1234567
in reply to Jason2357 • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to Zephorah • • •Megaman_EXE
in reply to Chris Remington • • •This is why I'm nervous about going back to school too. I've seen people find out their professors are just using AI and it feels so...gross. You pay a lot for school! What's the point if it's all just phoned in? And then to top it off you aren't guaranteed a good job afterwards even if you do well.
I wish there was a better solution to all of this because I would like to change my life trajectory as I've grown tired in my current position
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massive_bereavement
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •partofthevoice
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •Damn, I never thought about how AI is making it so that even the professionals are unprofessional nowβ¦ because AI enables the posers to get the job, and then they keep using AI to keep the job.
How can you maintain a workforce of specializations under these conditions?
t3rmit3
in reply to partofthevoice • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to t3rmit3 • • •Tollana1234567
in reply to t3rmit3 • • •t3rmit3
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •OwOarchist
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •You get a piece of paper at the end that proves you've gone through the class barrier hurdle successfully, thus demonstrating that you're not one of those filthy poors, so you're eligible for one of the good jobs.
DdCno1
in reply to OwOarchist • • •OwOarchist
in reply to DdCno1 • • •Well, that's what they mean by one of the 'good jobs'.
Because, sure, that still sucks ass. But at least you're not sweating like a pig and getting skin cancer while mowing lawns. At least you're not pissing in a bottle and stepping over dead coworkers for Amazon. And at least you're not getting physically assaulted by irate customers who are mad at your employer's terrible policies in some shitty dead-end retail place.
Until those layoffs happen, you get to work in an air conditioned office. You get a chair to sit in. You might even get lunch breaks sometimes!
Jason2357
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •You have the right attitude and I hope you are able to successfully shop around. Some institutions are paying below living wages to overworked and precariously employed instructors. Of course they phone it in. Those places are not worth your money and just trying to cash in on the "diploma" =="job ticket" mentality.
Find a place that actually gives a shit about education and you should find professors interested in actual education that will see your attitude as refreshing.
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Tollana1234567
in reply to Jason2357 • • •apparently IVY league schools arnt immune to AI slop- dumbing down. i think covid made both professors and STUDENTS lazy to the point they would just try to AI(likely to just search the answers online). from what ive seen colleges are pretty stingy at hiring people once they get enough tenured, they avoid paying more by having temporary instructors, either adjunct PHDs, MS holders, and the rare BS holder.
probablly better of starting at CC first taking all your GE classes, then looking at 4years to transfer to, this gives you time to research schools.
Tollana1234567
in reply to Megaman_EXE • • •Ech
in reply to Chris Remington • • •prole
in reply to Ech • • •Not the same at all.
Take home tests are usually formatted in a way where it doesn't matter if the student has access to textbooks, or even the internet, since they still need to synthesize a response (thinking specifically of essay questions here, but it's not exclusive to them) that shows they understood the material.
LLMs can now do that now. Or at least emulate that.
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jambudz
in reply to Ech • • •like this
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Tollana1234567
in reply to jambudz • • •NihilsineNefas
in reply to Chris Remington • • •like this
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HexagonSun
in reply to Chris Remington • • •like this
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βπ-ππ
in reply to HexagonSun • • •nomad
in reply to HexagonSun • • •Au contraire. AI is pretty good at helping understand and explaining, you just have to do the work yourself and verify everything it tells you. Which is exactly what university is mostly about. After enduring the hardship of working through every detail you really understand a topic. The problem in university is often access to somebody to ask questions and the most successful researchers are usually not the greatest at teaching which results in a lot of research and figuring it out yourself. I had to get my engineering degree the hard way which taught me alot, but it was about 15% harder than necessary.
I'm currently learning how to calculate the weight a set of beams can take safely. I'm obviously working with proper sources, but being able to clarify things makes the learning so much less frustrating. And its basic stuff like is mm^3 = (mm)^3 = (10^(-3))^3 * m^3 or is it a single 10^(-3) * m^3. Turns out the qualifier contains the dimension of the unit by convention, so the first solution is correct. Now try looking that up without asking someone or reading in primary sou
... Show more...Au contraire. AI is pretty good at helping understand and explaining, you just have to do the work yourself and verify everything it tells you. Which is exactly what university is mostly about. After enduring the hardship of working through every detail you really understand a topic. The problem in university is often access to somebody to ask questions and the most successful researchers are usually not the greatest at teaching which results in a lot of research and figuring it out yourself. I had to get my engineering degree the hard way which taught me alot, but it was about 15% harder than necessary.
I'm currently learning how to calculate the weight a set of beams can take safely. I'm obviously working with proper sources, but being able to clarify things makes the learning so much less frustrating. And its basic stuff like is mm^3 = (mm)^3 = (10^(-3))^3 * m^3 or is it a single 10^(-3) * m^3. Turns out the qualifier contains the dimension of the unit by convention, so the first solution is correct. Now try looking that up without asking someone or reading in primary sources for hours. AI can not only explain how and why it is but also give you a reference where to check that in a primary source which cuts down the time to properly learn by alot.
At university I never understood people that got the exam from last year to learn how to solve the problems by heart as to avoid learning to understand and instead studying to pass exams. Those people not only haven't understood why they are there in the first place but are also trusted to build bridges and buildings later on. Which is kind of unnerving.
The same applies to people abusing AI to cheat. They might have a few or a lot of human lives on their conscious in the future. They are not there to understand but to pass.