I heard it about 100x a day here. “It doesn’t matter if the Rep beats the Dem. They’re all the same!”
And on behalf of my friends and family and neighbors affected by the policies that the greater evil has put in place since then, those people can go fuck themselves with a chainsaw.
@tek @benroyce In 2024, 90M eligible voters didn't vote. #2 in the race was Trump with 78M, and #3 was Harris with 75M.
Is your idea that the election was decided by people really thought to themselves, "I'm a huge lefty and I hate both Trump *and *Harris so I'll vote Trump"? That would have to swing over 3M voters. That voting rationale is largely insane and would only appeal to voters with brain damage. Could that rationale really attract 3M voters?
If I was DNC analyst, I'd focus on tweaking policies and candidates to motivate the 90M ass-sitters and not cry over 3M huge lefties with brain damage (if they even exist).
Full disclosure: I'm a huge lefty and I voted for Harris - and not a 3rd party - because FD Signifier told me to shut up and vote for Harris.
... Show more...
@tek @benroyce In 2024, 90M eligible voters didn't vote. #2 in the race was Trump with 78M, and #3 was Harris with 75M.
Is your idea that the election was decided by people really thought to themselves, "I'm a huge lefty and I hate both Trump *and *Harris so I'll vote Trump"? That would have to swing over 3M voters. That voting rationale is largely insane and would only appeal to voters with brain damage. Could that rationale really attract 3M voters?
If I was DNC analyst, I'd focus on tweaking policies and candidates to motivate the 90M ass-sitters and not cry over 3M huge lefties with brain damage (if they even exist).
Full disclosure: I'm a huge lefty and I voted for Harris - and not a 3rd party - because FD Signifier told me to shut up and vote for Harris.
15 months later, I'm starting to believe that arguing about how to vote in future elections is, to be polite, not going to be an actual problem.
Edit: clarified that voting for Trump while admitting that you hate Trump is brain damaged. Suggesting that 3M US voters are, in fact, brain damaged in this manner is a reasonable hypothesis - just not one that I support. I think 78M Trump voters are brain damaged in other ways (racism, fascism, etc.)
@grumble209 @benroyce My idea is that a critical number of voters in close states were persuaded not to vote for Harris by that kind of propaganda.
Meanwhile, approximately zero Trump voters turned to Harris or stayed home for those reasons. It’s a plague on the left here, one the right seems immune to.
left leaning nonvoters are victims of the same psyop agenda as MAGA is
-the same agenda, not exactly the same psyop
the psyop on MAGA is to pump them up, get them to vote
the psyop method playing on the toxic idealism and mindless cynicism on the left is to spread hopelessness and helplessness, to immobilize and suppress their vote
and many people supposedly on the left listen to these agent provocateur voices cosplaying left, and believe them
@grumble209 @benroyce The US Green Party is a siphon to tip the scales away from the Dems. That's their sole raison d'être. It's the only plausible explanation for their existance.
And the right has its own weird splinter groups, but once the primaries are over and it's time to cast the final ballot, they all fall into line behind the Republican.
The American left is simply pathologically terrible at game theory.
@grumble209 @benroyce Now, if we switched to "approval voting" or something other than "first past the post", yes, fine, by all means vote for a marginal 3rd party with the mainstream leftward candidate as the fallback. That's completely logical and reasonable. Do it.
But when it's all or nothing, a vote for a 3rd party is mathematically identical to not voting.
@benroyce @grumble209 Heh! I don't remember what it was about, but I've seen you post things I disagreed with. We're not exactly clones. But wow, I wanted to shout "YES! THIS EXACTLY!" when I read your first words in this thread on my way to work today. I've been saying these things until I'm blue in the face, and it's nice to have reassurance that I'm not alone on this.
Please, y'all, _just vote_. Both sides aren't the same, no matter what you hear.
But remember, democracy doesn't imply political parties. Certainly, cliques and cabals and conspiracies and clubs are as old as humanity. But a private club that demands (rewards) allegiance and loyalty to the club above that demanded of citizenship or the duties of a political office?
That shit is modern, and it's the root of the corruption the US has endured for almost two centuries now.
We could have legislated what parties can do, but in the 20 or so decades we've had them, and in over 40 presidencies, I guess we've all just been *too darn busy*.
@grumble209 @Angelina @benroyce Not saying this to support the party system, which I do no, in fact support, but...
I think they're inevitable as long as you have freedom of association. "Hey, I'll vote with you on X if you vote with me on Y, alright?" Do that a few times, and you end up with a mutual-support pact. Opponents will have to do the same to keep from being outvoted at every turn. Next thing you know, hey, we have parties again.
@benroyce @tek @grumble209 I know I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. All of those Palestinian concern trolls talking about how Harris would enable genocide is a prime example of this. As though Trump wouldn't have done the same or worse (and has, as it turns out.)
In the next election, be vigilant for exactly this playbook. The subjects might differ. Maybe it'll be Thailand or Ukraine, but the rhetoric will be the same.
That's exactly right, but no amount of argument can convince a concern troll of that sort because they are not interested in honest debate. They are trying to poison the well. It's infuriating.
@bruce @tek This is almost a good use case for AI. An agent that looks at the posts an account and what kind of engagement it drives. Provide word clouds of the terms and frequency the account uses vs the responses they get, also how frequently the comment on friend accounts vs total strangers about subjects outside their primary word cloud. I'd need to think about it a bit but it seems like bad actors should be quantifiable by their behavior so I tool to get them out of your DMs is possible.
Correct. There's also the addage: You cannot save others when you need to be saved. Trump's cult is an existential threat to this nation, certainly my personal safety as a trans feminist with a boyfriend of color whose parents are both legal immigrants.
Also, I'll take the flames for saying it: In Palestine at BEST I would be imprisoned; probably stoned to death. Why are misogynists so much more important than me, other women, and PoC?
@obscurestar @bruce @benroyce @grumble209 How I've personally phrased it: I hate what's happening in Palestine, but I'll be damned if I'm going to vote for a politician who wants to hurt my trans friends. If Harris wanted to nuke Palestine or something, that'd require some philosophical pondering. She didn't, though. She just wasn't as ideal as we on the left might've hoped.
So: (Support trans) + (mediocre on Palestine) > (Hurt trans) + (bad on Palestine)
@tek @obscurestar @bruce @benroyce @grumble209 I was just mentioning to someone that right now we could be spending all our energy protesting for better treatment in Palestine instead of fighting our own country's secret police.
I hate conspiracy theory but trolls cosplaying American isn't conspiracy it's real. Only the scale of it is unknown
Voices harping on how imperfect Harris was on Gaza: some were real Americans. But it's such an easy high holy outrage psyop play. So how many were fake?
Likud trollfarm knew Trump works better for Netanyahu than Harris
So how many nonvoters-for-Palestine were, ironically, serving Netanyahu by buying into "Genocide Joe" astroturf?
You remember the tactic: "They treated Bernie badly and didn't consider him viable! Hillary will win anyway, so withhold your vote in protest, or vote for Jill Stein! Your vote won't count, but your soul will be pure!"
Just another way to manipulate the easily led in order for Epstein class to stay in power.
@SeanPLynch @bruce @benroyce @grumble209 Yup. I wonder what the smug, self-righteous pro-Republican meme will be next time around? "Newsom and Trump both eat at fancy restaurants. I could never vote for either of them!"
@grumble209 Any time someone starts off their discussions about the evils of a specific person with "But what about X"... They are basically admitting it. "Trump is in the Epstein files, but what about Bill Clinton" or "Trump is gonna support Israel's massacre, but what about Harris, she didn't do anything to stop them either"
Those are things I have either read here on Mastodon or heard in coffee shops in the US.
or "both tyrants" as in edgelord mindlessly cynical bullshit, often pumped from MAGA/ geopolitical trollfarm accounts cosplaying left to help to do an easy psyop to suppress the left vote and help elect the real tyrant, and unfortunately believed by toxic idealism morons
@tek @benroyce @cy Hmm, #Kamala a tyrant? Could somebody with that laugh ever be considered a tyrant? I say no. Many have categorized that laugh as annoying, or unPresidential, or whatever, I always considered it infectious.
@Thumper1964 @benroyce @cy Well, she definitely wasn't a perfect candidate, as though such a thing exists.
But wow, to settle for "just" intelligent, educated, rational, experienced, competent, and a decent human? Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the "both sides are the same" crowd are freaking idiots.
@tek @Thumper1964 @benroyce @cy Both sides are the same is almost always a telling excuse for your own side. Are there independents who share your issue? Who do they caucus with? WHO DO THEY CAUCUS WITH?
If they're both tyrants, who will continue the same tyranny, then your electoral process has already been compromised by tyrants, who are pretending to be different sides to mislead you into voting for them. In that scenario, no vote you make will stop your election from being rigged, so you're an idiot if you think voting third party, abstaining from voting, or voting for the Devil Himself would make anything different happen.
So vote for Harris, but it'll only prolong the tyranny unless you do something besides vote, to stop the propaganda, ballot stuffing, and voter disenfranchisement. And redistribute the wealth so no one has the power to rig your elections.
@cy I vehemently disagree. If we could all collectively decide to opt-out, then sure. But we can't. We won't. The right will absolutely, positively, never agree to abstain from elections. Ergo, the left abstaining is mathematically identical to voting for the right.
Voting for the lesser evil sucks. Not voting for the lesser evil is implicitly voting for the greater evil.
Sometimes the lesser evil is genuinely, truly... Less Evil.
@nikatjef @grumble209 @benroyce If I could change exactly one thing about our elections, it'd be to switch to that (or approval or instant runoff or Condorcet or...) instead of FPTP. Almost anything is better. We could have a commission of mathematicians and political scientists to nail down the particulars, but the final answer would be "something other than what we have today".
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Brian Jopek • • •by the way, these checks and balances do not just apply to the supreme court and congress
it applies to *you*
FUCKING #VOTE, PEOPLE
the next dem candidate may SUCK. fucking SUCK
(they won't suck IF YOU SHOW UP IN THE FUCKING PRIMARIES, USELESS WHINERS)
as if the dem candidate sucking fucking matters with a fascist threat like trump and MAGA
a vote is not a statement of eternal love
it's tactics in a larger war
fight the war and fuck your mindless cynicism and toxic idealism
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce “But Candidate X isn’t flawless! I might as well just vote for the tyrant!”
I do appreciate when people say that out loud so I know whose opinions I can ignore from that moment on.
Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek @benroyce Who ever said that? Name three. This sounds like a straw man argument to me. 🤷
Speaking for myself, most people who hate both the GOP Candidate and the DNC Candidate either vote 3rd party or don't vote at all.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •I heard it about 100x a day here. “It doesn’t matter if the Rep beats the Dem. They’re all the same!”
And on behalf of my friends and family and neighbors affected by the policies that the greater evil has put in place since then, those people can go fuck themselves with a chainsaw.
Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek @benroyce In 2024, 90M eligible voters didn't vote. #2 in the race was Trump with 78M, and #3 was Harris with 75M.
Is your idea that the election was decided by people really thought to themselves, "I'm a huge lefty and I hate both Trump *and *Harris so I'll vote Trump"? That would have to swing over 3M voters. That voting rationale is largely insane and would only appeal to voters with brain damage. Could that rationale really attract 3M voters?
If I was DNC analyst, I'd focus on tweaking policies and candidates to motivate the 90M ass-sitters and not cry over 3M huge lefties with brain damage (if they even exist).
Full disclosure: I'm a huge lefty and I voted for Harris - and not a 3rd party - because FD Signifier told me to shut up and vote for Harris.
... Show more...@tek @benroyce In 2024, 90M eligible voters didn't vote. #2 in the race was Trump with 78M, and #3 was Harris with 75M.
Is your idea that the election was decided by people really thought to themselves, "I'm a huge lefty and I hate both Trump *and *Harris so I'll vote Trump"? That would have to swing over 3M voters. That voting rationale is largely insane and would only appeal to voters with brain damage. Could that rationale really attract 3M voters?
If I was DNC analyst, I'd focus on tweaking policies and candidates to motivate the 90M ass-sitters and not cry over 3M huge lefties with brain damage (if they even exist).
Full disclosure: I'm a huge lefty and I voted for Harris - and not a 3rd party - because FD Signifier told me to shut up and vote for Harris.
15 months later, I'm starting to believe that arguing about how to vote in future elections is, to be polite, not going to be an actual problem.
Edit: clarified that voting for Trump while admitting that you hate Trump is brain damaged. Suggesting that 3M US voters are, in fact, brain damaged in this manner is a reasonable hypothesis - just not one that I support. I think 78M Trump voters are brain damaged in other ways (racism, fascism, etc.)
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •@grumble209 @benroyce My idea is that a critical number of voters in close states were persuaded not to vote for Harris by that kind of propaganda.
Meanwhile, approximately zero Trump voters turned to Harris or stayed home for those reasons. It’s a plague on the left here, one the right seems immune to.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •left leaning nonvoters are victims of the same psyop agenda as MAGA is
-the same agenda, not exactly the same psyop
the psyop on MAGA is to pump them up, get them to vote
the psyop method playing on the toxic idealism and mindless cynicism on the left is to spread hopelessness and helplessness, to immobilize and suppress their vote
and many people supposedly on the left listen to these agent provocateur voices cosplaying left, and believe them
fucking morons
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @grumble209 Preach it, good sir.
They don't have to sway everyone. They only have to add a few to the right, remove a few from the left, and tip the scales just enough.
Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @tek Once, I thought voting Green Party was a reasonable position.
Then I saw this photo.
There might be 3rd parties in the US that aren't compromised or useful idiots. But the Green Party isn't one of them.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •@grumble209 @benroyce The US Green Party is a siphon to tip the scales away from the Dems. That's their sole raison d'être. It's the only plausible explanation for their existance.
And the right has its own weird splinter groups, but once the primaries are over and it's time to cast the final ballot, they all fall into line behind the Republican.
The American left is simply pathologically terrible at game theory.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@grumble209 @benroyce Now, if we switched to "approval voting" or something other than "first past the post", yes, fine, by all means vote for a marginal 3rd party with the mainstream leftward candidate as the fallback. That's completely logical and reasonable. Do it.
But when it's all or nothing, a vote for a 3rd party is mathematically identical to not voting.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek @grumble209
who are you "Tekniquelly correct"?
you seem to be me
😆
thank you for the sanity and the light
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @grumble209
Heh! I don't remember what it was about, but I've seen you post things I disagreed with. We're not exactly clones. But wow, I wanted to shout "YES! THIS EXACTLY!" when I read your first words in this thread on my way to work today. I've been saying these things until I'm blue in the face, and it's nice to have reassurance that I'm not alone on this.
Please, y'all, _just vote_. Both sides aren't the same, no matter what you hear.
Vote.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek @grumble209
marry me
😆
Dud
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •Angelina
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Angelina • • •And one day I hope you understand that you have to pick one anyway, because one will be in power over you.
Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱
in reply to Angelina • • •@Angelina @benroyce @tek You're probably right.
But remember, democracy doesn't imply political parties. Certainly, cliques and cabals and conspiracies and clubs are as old as humanity. But a private club that demands (rewards) allegiance and loyalty to the club above that demanded of citizenship or the duties of a political office?
That shit is modern, and it's the root of the corruption the US has endured for almost two centuries now.
We could have legislated what parties can do, but in the 20 or so decades we've had them, and in over 40 presidencies, I guess we've all just been *too darn busy*.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •@grumble209 @Angelina @benroyce Not saying this to support the party system, which I do no, in fact support, but...
I think they're inevitable as long as you have freedom of association. "Hey, I'll vote with you on X if you vote with me on Y, alright?" Do that a few times, and you end up with a mutual-support pact. Opponents will have to do the same to keep from being outvoted at every turn. Next thing you know, hey, we have parties again.
Bruce Heerssen
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @tek @grumble209
I know I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. All of those Palestinian concern trolls talking about how Harris would enable genocide is a prime example of this. As though Trump wouldn't have done the same or worse (and has, as it turns out.)
In the next election, be vigilant for exactly this playbook. The subjects might differ. Maybe it'll be Thailand or Ukraine, but the rhetoric will be the same.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Bruce Heerssen • • •Now I'm back to wanting to yell at my screen. 😀
Yes. I disagreed with Harris on Palestine. Not as much as I disagreed with Trump, but still.
So in math, if you have an inequality, and you remove the same quantity from both sides, _you still have the same inequality_:
Harris + (bad Palestine opinion) > Trump + (bad Palestine opinion)
⬇️
Harris > Trump
If they're the same on that issue, you can delete it and compare on the other thousand issues.
Bruce Heerssen
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek
That's exactly right, but no amount of argument can convince a concern troll of that sort because they are not interested in honest debate. They are trying to poison the well. It's infuriating.
obscurestar
in reply to Bruce Heerssen • • •Tekniquelly correct
in reply to obscurestar • • •obscurestar
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •Correct. There's also the addage: You cannot save others when you need to be saved. Trump's cult is an existential threat to this nation, certainly my personal safety as a trans feminist with a boyfriend of color whose parents are both legal immigrants.
Also, I'll take the flames for saying it: In Palestine at BEST I would be imprisoned; probably stoned to death. Why are misogynists so much more important than me, other women, and PoC?
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to obscurestar • • •@obscurestar @bruce @benroyce @grumble209
How I've personally phrased it: I hate what's happening in Palestine, but I'll be damned if I'm going to vote for a politician who wants to hurt my trans friends. If Harris wanted to nuke Palestine or something, that'd require some philosophical pondering. She didn't, though. She just wasn't as ideal as we on the left might've hoped.
So: (Support trans) + (mediocre on Palestine) > (Hurt trans) + (bad on Palestine)
That was an easy choice.
Frank Skornia
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Frank Skornia • • •@fskornia @obscurestar @bruce @benroyce @grumble209
Sigh. Wouldn't that have been nice?
But alas, "both sides are the same, so I'm abstaining."
Bastards.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •I hate conspiracy theory but trolls cosplaying American isn't conspiracy it's real. Only the scale of it is unknown
Voices harping on how imperfect Harris was on Gaza: some were real Americans. But it's such an easy high holy outrage psyop play. So how many were fake?
Likud trollfarm knew Trump works better for Netanyahu than Harris
So how many nonvoters-for-Palestine were, ironically, serving Netanyahu by buying into "Genocide Joe" astroturf?
Sean Lynch
in reply to Bruce Heerssen • • •@bruce @benroyce @tek @grumble209
It's the same mis-info campaign as the so-called 'Bernie Bros'.
You remember the tactic:
"They treated Bernie badly and didn't consider him viable! Hillary will win anyway, so withhold your vote in protest, or vote for Jill Stein! Your vote won't count, but your soul will be pure!"
Just another way to manipulate the easily led in order for Epstein class to stay in power.
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Sean Lynch • • •James Wells
in reply to Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱 • • •@grumble209
Any time someone starts off their discussions about the evils of a specific person with "But what about X"... They are basically admitting it. "Trump is in the Epstein files, but what about Bill Clinton" or "Trump is gonna support Israel's massacre, but what about Harris, she didn't do anything to stop them either"
Those are things I have either read here on Mastodon or heard in coffee shops in the US.
@tek @benroyce @BrianJopek
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to James Wells • • •Cy
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •What if they're both tyrants?
CC: @benroyce@mastodon.social @BrianJopek@mastodon.world
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Cy • • •@cy @tek
both tyrants as in reality
or "both tyrants" as in edgelord mindlessly cynical bullshit, often pumped from MAGA/ geopolitical trollfarm accounts cosplaying left to help to do an easy psyop to suppress the left vote and help elect the real tyrant, and unfortunately believed by toxic idealism morons
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @cy Nailed it all around.
The many “both sides are the same!” whiners were either hopelessly ignorant or wholly gullible.
Imagine Harris invading Minnesota. As if.
Kevin LaRose, Antifa Member
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Kevin LaRose, Antifa Member • • •@Thumper1964 @benroyce @cy Well, she definitely wasn't a perfect candidate, as though such a thing exists.
But wow, to settle for "just" intelligent, educated, rational, experienced, competent, and a decent human? Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the "both sides are the same" crowd are freaking idiots.
FElon&Felon47🇺🇦🇨🇦🇩🇰🇹🇼
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •Both sides are the same is almost always a telling excuse for your own side. Are there independents who share your issue? Who do they caucus with? WHO DO THEY CAUCUS WITH?
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to FElon&Felon47🇺🇦🇨🇦🇩🇰🇹🇼 • • •libramoon
in reply to Tekniquelly correct • • •@tek @Thumper1964 @benroyce @cy
@BrianJopek
Really, there are no perfect people, so there can be no perfect human candidate
I'm pretty sure we don't want a robotaicracy
Cy
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •As in reality. Here, I'll answer my own question.
If they're both tyrants, who will continue the same tyranny, then your electoral process has already been compromised by tyrants, who are pretending to be different sides to mislead you into voting for them. In that scenario, no vote you make will stop your election from being rigged, so you're an idiot if you think voting third party, abstaining from voting, or voting for the Devil Himself would make anything different happen.
So vote for Harris, but it'll only prolong the tyranny unless you do something besides vote, to stop the propaganda, ballot stuffing, and voter disenfranchisement. And redistribute the wealth so no one has the power to rig your elections.
CC: @BrianJopek@mastodon.world @tek@freeradical.zone
Tekniquelly correct
in reply to Cy • • •@cy
I vehemently disagree. If we could all collectively decide to opt-out, then sure. But we can't. We won't. The right will absolutely, positively, never agree to abstain from elections. Ergo, the left abstaining is mathematically identical to voting for the right.
Voting for the lesser evil sucks. Not voting for the lesser evil is implicitly voting for the greater evil.
Sometimes the lesser evil is genuinely, truly... Less Evil.
Tekniquelly correct
Unknown parent • • •