Fascinating experiments done with humans and ants.
"Unsurprisingly, the cognitive abilities of humans gave them an edge in the individual challenge, in which they resorted to calculated, strategic planning, easily outperforming the ants.
In the group challenge, however, the picture was completely different, especially for the larger groups. Not only did groups of ants perform better than individual ants, but in some cases they did better than humans."
Anyone who has dealt with ants in the kitchen knows that ants are highly social creatures; it's rare to see one alone. Humans are social creatures too, even if some of us enjoy solitude.
@troublewithwords emergence is fecking amazing. If I were 20 I might want to study this … but I’d probably just go out drinking with the lads and end up like I am now.
@RolfBly @TheDonsieLass Oh you can see it? I'm never sure what other servers see but yes, our server runs on the "glitch-soc" branch of Mastodon which has #Markdown enabled.
Hopefully it will come to main Mastodon soon, there's an issue for it (github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…) but I'm not sure if it's planned for an upcoming release.. It's pretty convenient to have it!
Pitch Requests to add support for posting with Markdown formatting has come up many times in the past, so this is a proposal to formalize the recent efforts. I'm not against other forms of markup f...
@elduvelle @RolfBly Ya ya vanilla masto can see markup, sorta complicated: markdown capable instances let you write some flavor of markdown, that gets sent out to other instances as HTML. different fedi implementations then also have different HTML sanitization, so e.g. they might strip out quote tags or not, but base masto doesnt at least for quotes which use a blockquote html element. Markdown support in glitch is actually v simple, just a few buttons and one step to render to html
@RolfBly 'The load was made to resemble food' according to the paper. The researchers 'incubated the loads in cat food overnight and rubbed canned tuna on them, which made them seem like attractive food items to the ants'.
@farbel and also @porrporr: I'll redirect you to the other time this question was asked, by @RolfBly (trying to consolidate answers, I know you don't all see each other's answers): mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
BRB, making a meme version of this where the load is replaced with "tag @ futurebird" and the ants are replaced by "everyone on the Fediverse". Caption: Amazing how emergent behaviour by a swarm of simple intelligences can perform complex tasks.
@lindarosesmit It's a great question and I'll redirect you to the first time it was asked, by @RolfBly (trying to consolidate answers, I know you don't all see each other's answers): mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
If someone asks again, I'm definitely editing my original message to add the answer there!
@ned So, we're probably all thinking of pheromones, but apparently they weren't so useful for this puzzle:
"The puzzle is challenging for ants since their pheromone-based communication takes neither load size versus door size nor load rotations into account (36), and this deems a major part of their collective navigation strategy useless."
So instead the authors say the main communication medium was probably "haptic sensation":
"For longhorn crazy ants, communication in the context of cooperative transport is naturally mediated by both haptic sensation (38) and pheromone communication (36). However, since in the context of our puzzle, pheromones are practically useless (see above), this primarily leaves the ants with force-based communication. This makes comparisons between ant groups and restricted communication human groups especially compelling."
@elduvelle I believe that’s better social cooperation and collective intelligence than any higher primate, except possibly humans, right? I’m not sure if a few dozen humans could have solved an appropriately scaled version of that puzzle any faster. My question is: what’s the language they use? Pheremones? Body postures like bee dancing?
@impermanen_ Yes, it looks like you'll want to read the paper! They did the same experiment with humans, who were better when alone but worse in a group (provided they couldn't speak or communicate with gestures, to make it more comparable to the ants). I also put some quotes on how the ants communicated here: neuromatch.social/@elduvelle/1…
@impermanen_ Yes, it looks like you'll want to read the paper! They did the same experiment with humans, who were better when alone but worse in a group (provided they couldn't speak or communicate with gestures, to make it more comparable to the ants). I also put some quotes on how the ants communicated here: neuromatch.social/@elduvelle/1…
@ned So, we're probably all thinking of pheromones, but apparently they weren't so useful for this puzzle:
"The puzzle is challenging for ants since their pheromone-based communication takes neither load size versus door size nor load rotations into account (36), and this deems a major part of their collective navigation strategy useless."
So instead the authors say the main communication medium was probably "haptic sensation":
"For longhorn crazy ants, communication in the context of cooperative transport is naturally mediated by both haptic sensation (38) and pheromone communication (36). However, since in the context of our puzzle, pheromones are practically useless (see above), this primarily leaves the ants with force-based communication. This makes comparisons between ant groups and restricted communication human groups especially compelling."
@elduvelle just read a good book by Adrian Tchaikovsky that featured ants (ant-like creatures, at least) and the unique ways they solve problems as a plot point. Pretty amazing!
@MargaretD I'm not sure they used it for anything, but they wanted to bring it to the right side (which was closer to their nest) because they thought it was food. See the answers to this: mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
@elduvelle The first thought to cross my mind here was "how were the ants convinced to move the object?" which the paper answered thusly: "We incubated the loads in cat food overnight and rubbed canned tuna on them, which made them seem like attractive food items to the ants."
@NatureMC well, the humans are indeed worse than the ants when they have to work as a group in similar conditions (no oral or signed communication) @RadicalAnthro @jonny
@riley She has been mentioned several times, and also already boosted the paper :) e.g. dair-community.social/@trochee… But see also the comment in @jonny's original post ⬆️
Not your fault, it's because most people cannot see all answers to a post, because we need #FetchAllReplies to be implemented into the main Mastodon code..
This is a #Simulation, isn't it ? This is not #real, or is it ? Why should real #Ants follow the #Task, I give them ? I'm not a #Scientist. If these would be real Ants, it would be #jawdropping. Can someone #explain it to me ? Thanx and nice #Holidays.
From where, the Hell, do they know, what the #Task is ? I still don't get, from where they know, the have to put the T- Piece from Chamber A to Chamber C ? They don't speak #English. Or is this "#antish" #playInstinct ?
@RolfBly 'The load was made to resemble food' according to the paper. The researchers 'incubated the loads in cat food overnight and rubbed canned tuna on them, which made them seem like attractive food items to the ants'.
El Duvelle
in reply to jonny (good kind) • • •Yes! Incredible!!
Here's a video from the paper.. Ants rock!
#ProblemSolving #Ants
Joseph likes this.
Tom Stafford
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Jeremy Kahn
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle
Attention @futurebird i was surprised to find that you weren't the one sharing this in my feed
AMAZING
El Duvelle
in reply to Jeremy Kahn • • •@trochee
I also thought of @futurebird when seeing the paper! She boosted @jake4480 ’s post on it:
c.im/@jake4480/113710150469838…
Jake in the desert
2024-12-24 22:26:40
Jon Sullivan
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Jon Sullivan
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle reshared this.
mark, an american in ireland
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Gondor
in reply to El Duvelle • • •nadja
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Northern Solar Punk
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Rolf Blijleven
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle
in reply to Rolf Blijleven • • •Here you go:
Edit: actually not only did the load "resembled food", it was bathed in cat food and smeared with tuna 😅 as found by @TheDonsieLass
@jonny
F4GRX Sébastien
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Rolf Blijleven
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle Thank you 🙂
(Also I like your quote mark-up, btw. You can use markdown somehow I guess?)
@jonny @TheDonsieLass
El Duvelle
in reply to Rolf Blijleven • • •@RolfBly @TheDonsieLass
Oh you can see it? I'm never sure what other servers see but yes, our server runs on the "glitch-soc" branch of Mastodon which has #Markdown enabled.
Hopefully it will come to main Mastodon soon, there's an issue for it (github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…) but I'm not sure if it's planned for an upcoming release.. It's pretty convenient to have it!
Add support for posting with Markdown syntax · Issue #23981 · mastodon/mastodon
GitHubjonny (good kind)
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@RolfBly
Ya ya vanilla masto can see markup, sorta complicated: markdown capable instances let you write some flavor of markdown, that gets sent out to other instances as HTML. different fedi implementations then also have different HTML sanitization, so e.g. they might strip out quote tags or not, but base masto doesnt at least for quotes which use a blockquote html element. Markdown support in glitch is actually v simple, just a few buttons and one step to render to html
Rolf Blijleven
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle It looks like this, for me on mastodon.social in Tusky.
@jonny @TheDonsieLass
The Crafty Miss
in reply to Rolf Blijleven • • •El Duvelle
in reply to The Crafty Miss • • •@TheDonsieLass Good find about the cat food / tuna smell!
@RolfBly
Rolf Blijleven
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle Thanks. And I gather the nest was to the right (for the viewer), they just had to drag it to there.
Amazing co-operation.
@TheDonsieLass
Vive Levant
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Dimimore "spicy falafel"🧪🚲😷
in reply to El Duvelle • • •J A
in reply to Dimimore "spicy falafel"🧪🚲😷 • • •@DimitriFayolle @elduvelle @futurebird
I was just about to tag @futurebird!
El Duvelle
in reply to J A • • •@jaeclectic @DimitriFayolle
Yes :) she has already been tagged here:
dair-community.social/@trochee…
Here you go @jonny, another case study demonstrating the need for #FetchAllReplies :)
@futurebird sorry about all the tagging, it shows how much you're appreciated on here!
Jeremy Kahn
2024-12-25 21:06:35
Elon Muksis
in reply to El Duvelle • • •porrporr
in reply to El Duvelle • • •David Scott Moyer
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle
in reply to David Scott Moyer • • •@farbel and also @porrporr:
I'll redirect you to the other time this question was asked, by @RolfBly (trying to consolidate answers, I know you don't all see each other's answers):
mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
@jonny... Hope you're enjoying all the tagging 😘
Rolf Blijleven
2024-12-25 22:23:27
porrporr
in reply to El Duvelle • • •F4GRX Sébastien
in reply to El Duvelle • • •stib
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle reshared this.
Linda Rose Smit
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle
in reply to Linda Rose Smit • • •@lindarosesmit
It's a great question and I'll redirect you to the first time it was asked, by @RolfBly (trying to consolidate answers, I know you don't all see each other's answers):
mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
If someone asks again, I'm definitely editing my original message to add the answer there!
Rolf Blijleven
2024-12-25 22:23:27
Linda Rose Smit
in reply to El Duvelle • • •ned haughton
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle
Pretty crazy that the humans don't actually seem to do it any faster in a group.
Does anyone know how much signalling is happening between the ants?
The comment about emergence kind of makes me wonder if communication is inversely proportional to self-organising emergence in some contexts..
#ants #complexity #emergence
El Duvelle
in reply to ned haughton • • •@ned
So, we're probably all thinking of pheromones, but apparently they weren't so useful for this puzzle:
So instead the authors say the main communication medium was probably "haptic sensation":
bunnyhero+
in reply to El Duvelle • • •impermanen_ 🕊️
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle
I believe that’s better social cooperation and collective intelligence than any higher primate, except possibly humans, right? I’m not sure if a few dozen humans could have solved an appropriately scaled version of that puzzle any faster. My question is: what’s the language they use? Pheremones? Body postures like bee dancing?
Ok, ok, I will read the paper!
@jonny
El Duvelle
in reply to impermanen_ 🕊️ • • •@impermanen_
Yes, it looks like you'll want to read the paper! They did the same experiment with humans, who were better when alone but worse in a group (provided they couldn't speak or communicate with gestures, to make it more comparable to the ants).
I also put some quotes on how the ants communicated here:
neuromatch.social/@elduvelle/1…
@jonny
@impermanen_
Yes, it looks like you'll want to read the paper! They did the same experiment with humans, who were better when alone but worse in a group (provided they couldn't speak or communicate with gestures, to make it more comparable to the ants).
I also put some quotes on how the ants communicated here:
neuromatch.social/@elduvelle/1…
@jonny
El Duvelle
2024-12-26 00:39:25
stony kark
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Marc Lepage
in reply to El Duvelle • • •WhistlerInTheDarkAges
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Margaret Dahlstrom
in reply to El Duvelle • • •And then what did they use it for?
El Duvelle
in reply to Margaret Dahlstrom • • •@MargaretD I'm not sure they used it for anything, but they wanted to bring it to the right side (which was closer to their nest) because they thought it was food. See the answers to this:
mastodon.social/@RolfBly/11371…
Rolf Blijleven
2024-12-25 22:23:27
Margaret Dahlstrom
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Brian Swetland
in reply to El Duvelle • • •El Duvelle
in reply to Brian Swetland • • •Jonas
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Whitney Loblaw
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Radical Anthropology
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Petra van Cronenburg
in reply to Radical Anthropology • • •El Duvelle
in reply to Petra van Cronenburg • • •Petra van Cronenburg
in reply to El Duvelle • • •CJ
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@Adria
I'm pretty optimistic that you have already seen it. But just in case you haven't ;)
Merry Christmas!
StillIRise1963
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Ray Gulick, he/him/wtf
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Reminds me of me and my college room-mates trying to move a couch into another room. After we'd smoked a joint.
@jonny
Riley S. Faelan
in reply to El Duvelle • • •@elduvelle
/cc @futurebird since somehow, she appears to not be in this thread yet
@jonny
El Duvelle
in reply to Riley S. Faelan • • •@riley
She has been mentioned several times, and also already boosted the paper :)
e.g. dair-community.social/@trochee…
But see also the comment in @jonny's original post ⬆️
Not your fault, it's because most people cannot see all answers to a post, because we need #FetchAllReplies to be implemented into the main Mastodon code..
Jeremy Kahn
2024-12-25 21:06:35
Legit_Spaghetti
in reply to El Duvelle • • •JulieR
in reply to El Duvelle • • •DiscreetSecurity
in reply to El Duvelle • • •aproitz
in reply to El Duvelle • • •This is not #real, or is it ?
Why should real #Ants follow the #Task, I give them ? I'm not a #Scientist. If these would be real Ants, it would be #jawdropping. Can someone #explain it to me ? Thanx and nice #Holidays.
aproitz
in reply to El Duvelle • • •Chamber C ? They don't speak #English. Or is this "#antish" #playInstinct ?
jonny (good kind)
in reply to aproitz • • •@antonproitzelhaimer
@elduvelle
T piece was soaked in cat food, so ants think it is food and are trying to bring it back to the nest :)
mas.to/@TheDonsieLass/11371589…
The Crafty Miss
2024-12-25 22:46:31
jesuiSatire …ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ
in reply to El Duvelle • • •👆
@futurebird