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Yes, the ex-publishers have essentially reversed the net flow of information: it used to flow from them to us, through the journals. Now we provide them with our data and that's where the real gold is found:

"Academic publishers’ most valuable asset used to be their journals. Now, it’s the data they collect from researchers and then sell."

ukrant.nl/magazine/elseviers-s…

#publishing #openaccess #openscience #academicchatter

in reply to Björn Brembs

Been warning about this for over a decade. Recently had to dig out an old blog post in this context. Most in academia are still oblivious to this fact.

khufkens.com/posts/publons-pee…

in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens

So true! I up your post from 2017 with one of mine from 2013:

blogarchive.brembs.net/comment…

🤣

It looks like assuming the worst from these corporations is a really good way to predict the future. 😆

in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

This was basically what Hypothes.is does. Linking annotations to documents, and gathering those for peer-review reports. The AGU journals now use this. But I've not come across any others.

web.hypothes.is/

in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens

None I know use anything like this! It should be implemented in a way such that I as an author can, e.g., just click on "accept" if I want to write what the reviewer suggested.

in reply to Björn Brembs

I once wrote a Google Chrome plugin which could load any PDF, and spit out an anonymous version of the annotations together with the line numbers as a text file. Sadly, the hypothes.is backend moved too fast for me to keep up. Maybe I should revisit it.
This entry was edited (4 days ago)
in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens

There is now a project at Imperial in the UK that is running an implementation with similar functionality. We just need to get rid of journals at it'll be one of the first things the replacement will have...

in reply to RoedigerRG

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

WRT #Zotero and #OpenAlex, yes, absolutely, I'd say. However, we already have many tens of thousands of peer-reviewed journals (check OpenAlex for number of sources!). I don't think more journals will give us a solution.

Instead, we have proposed to replace journals with a modern, federated infrastructure:
royalsocietypublishing.org/doi…

This is also what the EU science ministers have concluded:
consilium.europa.eu/en/press/p…

and the cOAlition S funders:
coalition-s.org/towards-respon…

This entry was edited (4 days ago)
in reply to Björn Brembs

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

Once again, a proposal that takes no consideration whatsoever for the vital intellectual role journals play in the humanities and social sciences. Seeking to bureaucratically impose (bad) solutions to these disciplines is not a very democratic move.

This entry was edited (3 days ago)
in reply to Nicolas Barreyre

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

Not sure I understand. Please point out where we write that we wish to impose our proposal on everyone and where we forbid (as if we even could!) anybody from investing more than necessary into their part of the system?

This entry was edited (3 days ago)
in reply to Björn Brembs

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens I was referring to the part that states it is necessary to get rid of journals. Or did I misread this part too?
in reply to Nicolas Barreyre

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

No, of course, we propose to replace parasitic corporations with a scholar-led alternative. Do you propose we stayed with the parasites instead?

The argument (already long before this article) is commonly that most of the money goes to parasites and most parasites publish journals in STEM fields. So some of the money we save there can go back to fields that have historically been drained by the parasites indirectly: because of shrinking budgets.

This entry was edited (3 days ago)
in reply to Björn Brembs

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

Ok. Stepping back. I am all for getting rid of the parasite for-profit publishers. They are a major problem. What I reacted to is the proposal, to quote you, « to replace journals with other systems », because in the social and human sciences journals do more than just peer-review and publish, and they play an important intellectual role. Maybe they could do that again in the experimental sciences but I have no idea.

in reply to Nicolas Barreyre

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

Good that we agree on getting rid of the parasites 👍 Common gorund!

In our companion paper:

royalsocietypublishing.org/doi…

we describe (maybe more like 'suggest', lol) how modern social technologies could be leveraged much more effectively than journals to support some of the other functions jhournals have served historically.

in reply to Björn Brembs

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens Thanks for sharing. It strikes me the paper describes a type of ecosystem (learned society/journal) that’s only dominant (in my discipline at least) in some countries. Since you seem UK-based, I’d like to suggest maybe talking with the folks at Past&Present about all this?
Sorry to butt in earlier. The SHS are a dominated part of academia, and whatever happens in STEM impacts us directly, and we are rarely part of the conversation.
in reply to Nicolas Barreyre

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens

I'm a biologist based in Germany and this article was co-written by a chemist from the UK, a geoscientist from the US and a humanities scholar from Canada 😜

The roole model we use as an example in the paper is @hcommons.social Humanities Commons who to us seem really an examplar of how we think all fields of academia ought to approach social technologies.

in reply to Björn Brembs

@RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens @hcommons.social
Well, so it is. I’ve had that fight with (humanities) colleagues here in France during the open access debates. It’s astonishing how easily many authors can forget about all the intellectual labor done by their colleagues who work on editorial boards on the articles they eventually publish. It’s a form of invisibilization of collective labor and input that has always troubled me in today’s academia.
in reply to Nicolas Barreyre

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @koen_hufkens @hcommons.social

Last year, I talked with @tdverstynen about the labor that goes into humanities publishing. I don't see any obstacles for the humanities, only opportrunities. E.g., wouldn't the people doing all this labor, be happy to work with a functional infrastructure that makes their work easier? You know, so they don't have to struggle on remembering which button to klick or where to submit what, but actually focus on their job?

in reply to Björn Brembs

@NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen A lot of resistance (from all academics) in these large moves is that this would require abolishing prestige (attached to current venues). This seems to be a sticking point for many.
in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle just jumping in here, if I may. One of things that I feel often get overlooked in these discussions of “prestige” is that it is treated (solely) as a property *individuals* seek out, instead of acknowledging that in systems (like the UK) that tie institutional funding to nationally assessed “research success” it is actually (partly) a systemic feature that determines continued survival
in reply to Ulrike Hahn

@koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle that not only makes it something that is not (merely) in individuals’ gift to make choices on, it means also that whatever better system we envision instead will run up against a fundamental funding allocation model for higher education that wants to tie institution level allocations to some kind of measurable performance indicator derived from individuals
in reply to Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle True, but I would argue one can unionize on many levels to address these issues. Collective bargaining is often forgotten it seems in favour of a race to the bottom.
in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle Koen, I don’t think this has much to do with unions. The key point I’m trying to make is that “survival”, here, is not (just) in operation at the level of individuals, but pertains to entire academic departments. In the UK, seeking out individual ‘prestige’ is effectively something one owes one’s colleagues, because it’s part of keeping the entire department afloat.
in reply to Koen Hufkens, PhD

@koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle yes, it’s a collective action problem, but my whole point is that my choices about where to publish are already not just about my *own* job but my colleagues’ jobs as well, because that’s how HE funding works in the UK.
in reply to Ulrike Hahn

@koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle and not only are the moral and practical implications of me jeopardizing my own future for a higher purpose quite different to me jeopardizing the future of others, what I’m trying to get across is that replacement systems that have a greater chance of success somewhere like the UK will be ones that still give the underlying machinery metrics to work with-
in reply to Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn @koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle

Most areas in my research fields need extramural funding just to keep the lights in the lab on, so while the UK is indeed somewhat special with their national assessment exercises, in manby places PIs can justify their GlamHumping by pointing to the people in their labs.

in reply to Björn Brembs

@UlrikeHahn @koen_hufkens @NBarreyre @RoedigerRG @hcommons.social @tdverstynen @elduvelle

WRT the UK REF specifically, I vividly remember the first year REF explicitly banning journal rank from being used for evaluations in 2015:

svpow.com/2015/07/10/how-can-n…

By @mike

At the time, this demonstrated to me why the journals really must be phased out. Today, I look at Germany and see the exact same thing:

bjoern.brembs.net/2024/11/rese…

#assessmentreform #researchassessment