I’m not usually negative but…
Activitypub in general, and Mastodon in particular, has an information correctness problem.
If you read/view a conversation thread there is absolutely no way you can tell if that thread indeed is complete UNLESS you click away to go see the original thread on the instance it was posted. But if you see a response in the thread over there that you yourself would like to respond to you can’t, because you don’t have an account on that server (you clicked a link to see the full thing earlier, remember?).
When I compare a (very interesting) thread first read on Akkoma also on my Mastodon and Sharkey accounts I noticed they look completely different. I’m not talking about colours and lines here, I’m talking about the DNA of the thread, which is the original post and the replies to that post. The information/text. The stuff that should matter.
After the first post (which obviously is the same) the three threads look like a mish-mash of the thread from the originating server, with lots of missing replies and replies-to-replies. This is a problem.
To further complicate this situation there could also be instance-blocklists that the user doesn’t manage, in play too. I only manage one of the three instances in my example, and that happens to be the service that has the largest amount of thread replies visible.
Anyways, this is a problem. IMHO a quite serious one at that.
timorl
in reply to m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: • • •Sensitive content
In case you don’t know, if you copy the link to the comment you want to respond to into Akkoma search, it will fetch the comment (and anything upthread ofc) and you can respond to it then. Obviously this is terrible, atrocious UX, but strictly speaking you can respond.
m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: likes this.
m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull:
in reply to timorl • • •@timorl Indeed. I wasn’t talking about “stricly” or “are there work-arounds” though. There always are work-arounds. How many people will bother? How many “general/normal” people will know they are not looking at the truth? I think that is the problem, not how us geeks can work around it.
Too many people will allow themselves to get upset/happy/angry/sad based on something that isn’t the full truth. They will type up replies without knowing there are already 5 replies saying exactly the same thing, which further down the line will lead to an incomprehensible thread, especially in services where you can’t see which post another post is a direct reply to.
We could of course go all philosophical as well and say “people shouldn’t put that much value in to social media services”, and that’d also probably be correct…but people do. And if “our” network (F
... Show more...@timorl Indeed. I wasn’t talking about “stricly” or “are there work-arounds” though. There always are work-arounds. How many people will bother? How many “general/normal” people will know they are not looking at the truth? I think that is the problem, not how us geeks can work around it.
Too many people will allow themselves to get upset/happy/angry/sad based on something that isn’t the full truth. They will type up replies without knowing there are already 5 replies saying exactly the same thing, which further down the line will lead to an incomprehensible thread, especially in services where you can’t see which post another post is a direct reply to.
We could of course go all philosophical as well and say “people shouldn’t put that much value in to social media services”, and that’d also probably be correct…but people do. And if “our” network (Fediverse) is as bad for the truth as the ones we are trying to make people move away from…well, our arguments sort of fall on their face.
timorl likes this.
Kinetix
in reply to m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: • • •How was the view from the Sharkey instance you were using to compare with? I've been really, really pleased with this instance I've got going here.
I'm not sure I would equate thread completeness with 'truth', though. Even if we only use the word 'completeness', what are the boundaries there? There's the thread that is the direct replies to the original author, but entire new threads and conversations can spawn off any portion of the thread via quote posts, right?
But, you'd think better thread completeness would get a little more attention drawing people to non-Masto instances.
m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull:
in reply to Kinetix • • •@kinetix The Sharkey version of the thread was slightly fuller than the Mastodon version of the thread. Neither had half as many replies as the Akkoma version of the thread, which in turn was missing 1/3 of the replies from the originating server.
I’d say this is an ActivityPub issue in general, but also (obviously) how it is being implemented in the different services will matter.
I’ve never understood why each and every post in a thread need to include your, and mine, full profile with each post for example. It just takes up bandwidth and cpu (so to speak), whilst it apparently does NOT include lots of wished for meta data for the conversation on each message (such as id’s for parent/children posts).
I think (but do not know) a few of those additions were made in Pleroma (and thus Akkoma), which is why I in Akkoma have a clearer thread view and can “fold out” replies in a thread without having to reload the entire browser session, nor a
... Show more...@kinetix The Sharkey version of the thread was slightly fuller than the Mastodon version of the thread. Neither had half as many replies as the Akkoma version of the thread, which in turn was missing 1/3 of the replies from the originating server.
I’d say this is an ActivityPub issue in general, but also (obviously) how it is being implemented in the different services will matter.
I’ve never understood why each and every post in a thread need to include your, and mine, full profile with each post for example. It just takes up bandwidth and cpu (so to speak), whilst it apparently does NOT include lots of wished for meta data for the conversation on each message (such as id’s for parent/children posts).
I think (but do not know) a few of those additions were made in Pleroma (and thus Akkoma), which is why I in Akkoma have a clearer thread view and can “fold out” replies in a thread without having to reload the entire browser session, nor am I forced to do it the Mastodon (and, I think, Sharkey way) of “clicking in” on a post for it to go and pick up replies on that sub-thread, and then “back out” to the thread again.
All of the reading conversations, with thread-id’s and sub-thread-id’s should be made more efficient so if you get one post from a thread your service should go and ask the originating server for the full meta-data list (it does keep track of it today, right?) and then re-fetch all messages in the thread/sub-threads if there are changes, dynamically. If ActivityPub spent its time/bandwidth doing that, and then just pointing to userinformation for each of the posts as referal links, or store the profiles once locally and point to that (it should perhaps update at intervals), we’d all have a better reading experience in the Fediverse. Instead of bickering about pro’s/con’s with bridges or re-inventing quote-posts (which will basically mean we entrench ourselves even deeper into the already flawed ActivityPub we have today).
But yeah, I think it is very difficult/confusing for newbies to the Fediverse to understand why people don’t respond to them (they don’t see them) or how it can be that a post they read can have more than 50% of the replies to that post simply missing. No other social network works that way (as it isn’t very…umm…social…).
See? I had a break in cooking and I solved it all, just like that! 😆
Kinetix
in reply to m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: • • •I'm going to have to spend some time seeing if I can replicate that behaviour difference you're seeing between Akkoma and Sharkey.
I'll get back to you in, say, 6-14 months, is that OK? :grin:
I don't disagree with what you're saying about this flaw that is apparently only better or worse depending on the software. If everybody could just give me their money for forever I'll go and create the one instance for everybody and we'll solve it by brute force.
I'll see myself out. 😉
Seriously, though, I'm going to try and keep a bit closer eye on this discrepancy over the next while here and see what I notice. Maybe there's some issues that could be filed.
m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull:
in reply to Kinetix • • •@kinetix Haha, yeah. 😆
But yeah, as it stands today, there are work-arounds that can be made in the front-end. This is being highlighted by apps like Mona, where you have a button for “get this post from the original server (but still served here in the app)” which then gets all the replies in a thread. In my experience Akkoma (and probably also Pleroma) is better at back-filling and updating threads due to the extensions that have been made to ActivityPub in Pleroma. I guess any fediverse client that would fetch, and re-fetch, posts in intervals could mimic a more dynamic/full thread behaviour.
Still though, I’m not sure that is solving the full, or correct, problem, which I think is at the core of things. Most other things are pain killer for the broken leg.
Already in this short exchange the file that will serve you this post will contain my profile, and yours, at least 3 times. That includes my profile URL, my bio text, my profile links,
... Show more...@kinetix Haha, yeah. 😆
But yeah, as it stands today, there are work-arounds that can be made in the front-end. This is being highlighted by apps like Mona, where you have a button for “get this post from the original server (but still served here in the app)” which then gets all the replies in a thread. In my experience Akkoma (and probably also Pleroma) is better at back-filling and updating threads due to the extensions that have been made to ActivityPub in Pleroma. I guess any fediverse client that would fetch, and re-fetch, posts in intervals could mimic a more dynamic/full thread behaviour.
Still though, I’m not sure that is solving the full, or correct, problem, which I think is at the core of things. Most other things are pain killer for the broken leg.
Already in this short exchange the file that will serve you this post will contain my profile, and yours, at least 3 times. That includes my profile URL, my bio text, my profile links, point to where my profile pic is etc. All in all, from an information point of view, not bad info for those who wishes to know who they’re talking with. But for every post?
Imagine if this was real life, and before we started ANY sentence in a discussion we had to present ourselves with our full name, address, short bio of our lives, and a declaration of all our web sites…it would turn in to a tedious discussion rather quickly. Often the user meta data for a post is a LOT more than the contents of the posts. Imagine if we did all of that differently…? And what information we could exchange instead, which is of much higher value for the conversation than a third presentation. :)
Kinetix
in reply to m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: • • •I don't know where you're seeing that this is the case for all of that data, though. Your fedi user ID, link to that ID, the reference to your profile pic (not the graphic file itself) are all fired to the browser, but I don't see any evidence that your bio and/or links in the bio/profile, etc, come along with each post or conversation. I can specifically see that when I hover over your pic in Sharkey it makes a post to get your bio/profile.
Are you sure that's what's happening?
ilja :pumpkin_owo:
in reply to m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: • • •m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull: likes this.
m@thias.hellqui.st :verified-skull:
in reply to ilja :pumpkin_owo: • • •@ilja Yeah, that is also a part that saddens me a bit: all the possible solutions involve re-working ActivityPub, and how it is implemented in all the services. I.e. it’ll never happen.
I totally understand these days why Mike has moved on a couple of times between services, to develop his own thing (first whatever it was called, then Friendica and now Streams) that fixes the problems he sees and in vain tries to get others to implement them too, until he rolls his own, again.
It often feels like most services are born out of a wish to “if I only could do that, but in this super-cool superior language instead” and too few actually spend time where it should be spent. Now I sound bitter, but I’m not, it is merely an observation I’ve had.