What am I missing with Matrix?
I will be upfront with this, and say that I've never been a huge fan. But I did reinstall a Matrix server, and some clients to see if it'd gotten better in the year or so since I've last used it.
This just... Kind of feels like a more centralized XMPP with group chat folders that sort of function? The spaces feature is neat, but I've tried 4-5 clients, and every single one of those throws all of them into the same screen as the DMs by default, and I can't find a way to change that.
Am I missing something here? Like. I want to at least see what people like here, I just can't.
Sanctus
in reply to Kristell • • •Avatar of Vengeance
in reply to Kristell • • •matrix is pointless, huge bloated buggy ass server, no cheogram (phone number connection) or movim (social network accessible with any xmpp account), I can't even be bothered to list off my issues with it I wrote out on some comment on some other account here just save yourself.
xmpp literally lets me run phone numbers in 4 different countries that stay connected wherever I am
if you don't wanna deal with that arcanechat/deltachat is amazing tech that stays almost entirely on device. the arcanechat dev adb is cuban and YOU SHOULD GIVE HIM YOUR MONEY NOW
like this
Maeve likes this.
paper_moon
in reply to Avatar of Vengeance • • •Avatar of Vengeance
in reply to paper_moon • • •like this
Maeve likes this.
zo0
in reply to Avatar of Vengeance • • •Kristell
in reply to zo0 • • •Maeve
in reply to Avatar of Vengeance • • •❤️
Kristell
in reply to Avatar of Vengeance • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to Kristell • • •Arcane/Delta are compatible/interoperable with each other, one of the DC devs (the aforementioned adb) is the dev of Arcane and it's kind of his testing grounds, it has a few extra features like extra themes, markings on the official chats to help prevent scammers, and turning off accts at the profile select screen.
But tbh I went back to DC proper myself last week just because I didn't get that much benefit (didn't like the themes over the OG, only use one acct so far and it uses no battery so no need to switch it off, but I did like the badges on the saved/device chats and hope that makes it into the official). Plus the official has the experimental "channels" now that I wanted to play with, and you can enable "debug calls" now so I don't need Arcane for that anymore. Still love adb and he's still working on Delta too (and you can message him using either, his contact details are on arcanechat.me lol, and he's heavy on the DC forum, which you can log into using DC)!
Basically
... Show more...Arcane/Delta are compatible/interoperable with each other, one of the DC devs (the aforementioned adb) is the dev of Arcane and it's kind of his testing grounds, it has a few extra features like extra themes, markings on the official chats to help prevent scammers, and turning off accts at the profile select screen.
But tbh I went back to DC proper myself last week just because I didn't get that much benefit (didn't like the themes over the OG, only use one acct so far and it uses no battery so no need to switch it off, but I did like the badges on the saved/device chats and hope that makes it into the official). Plus the official has the experimental "channels" now that I wanted to play with, and you can enable "debug calls" now so I don't need Arcane for that anymore. Still love adb and he's still working on Delta too (and you can message him using either, his contact details are on arcanechat.me lol, and he's heavy on the DC forum, which you can log into using DC)!
Basically "same thing, try both, you can 'export backup' from say Delta and 'add as second device>import from backup' in Arcane and be logged into both if you want." I did that for a day or so while deliberating.
Delta Chat
Delta ChatArcaneSlime
in reply to Avatar of Vengeance • • •Bump for Delta Chat. Onboarding is easy as dick, just have them use the default server (nine.testrun.org iirc) unless you have a preference, and pick a uname, don't even need a password. The "invite friends" tab in DC is handy as hell. Modernish feeling chat to boot, and experimental video calling (works pretty fucking well tbh, better for me than Element's calling on Graphene without push notifs actually.)
I do like XMPP but it's still too hard for the normals still unfortunately, no easy "invite friends" that sends them directly to their app store and points them at my acct for me to send, and generally harder onboarding for them. And when I do get someone they complain about the outdated apps. And OMEMO is good but most apps use an outdated implementation and updating it would break compatibility with whoever didn't. I still use it as a fallback, but Delta has so far been what I've been needing.
Kraiden
in reply to Kristell • • •like this
TVA likes this.
karashta
in reply to Kraiden • • •like this
TVA likes this.
skribe
in reply to karashta • • •VoxAliorum
in reply to skribe • • •yes, but it doesn't have Al features
EDIT: Funny typo. Al->all
Goodlucksil
in reply to VoxAliorum • • •VoxAliorum
in reply to Goodlucksil • • •sudoer777
in reply to Kraiden • • •IratePirate
in reply to sudoer777 • • •Matrix is quietly becoming the chat layer for governments chasing digital sovereignty
Liam Proven (The Register)Kristell
in reply to sudoer777 • • •A: It does! Given how long it's been around, and this just being... A default experience thing that makes it kinda bad out of the box if you consider that someone might join more than 5 spaces (I know people who're in 40 discord "servers")
B: I have personally experienced the user experience of vibe coding. I would not recommend anyone else personally experience the user experience of vibe coding. The company I work for has seen production outages like never before since they started doing it. Security issues out the wazoo, like what's going on on the social medias for whatever they're calling ClawdBot this week
sudoer777
in reply to Kristell • • •Kristell
in reply to Kraiden • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to Kraiden • • •As far as convincing normies I've had limited success (still working on it) getting them to use Delta Chat, just due to the easy onboarding, just pick a name and go, no password even. Got a few on it including my mom who cannot computer to save her life.
So far the holdouts are a few people of the "I don't want to download a free app, you should spend a fucking grand on an iPhone so we can use iMessage" opinion (literally), and, idk I'm working on it but for people that out of touch and stupid there may be no hope except to be mercifully euthanized.
Kraiden
in reply to ArcaneSlime • • •ArcaneSlime
in reply to Kraiden • • •Lung
in reply to Kristell • • •sudoer777
in reply to Kristell • • •like this
TVA likes this.
mfed1122
in reply to Kristell • • •Omg I love this thread and this post. Sometimes I feel like everyone is crazy when they suggest alternative software.
People will be like "hey the best burger place in town closed can anyone recommend an alternative?"
And then a bunch of farmers show up like "yeah dude buy this calf and then just raise it real quick and also plant some trees to get wood for your smoker, you have a smoker right? Anyways yeah it's so easy bro I don't even know why anyone buys corporate burgers tbh."
And you say "hmmm okay sounds like a lot of work but I guess I can try it?"
And you try it and it's the shittiest blandest burger and it doesn't even have any sauce or lettuce or tomatoes because fuck you those things are for corporate burgers and if you want to complain why don't you open up a tomato branch and start contributing tomatoes then and waaah waaah why won't the stupid normies eat my shitty burger that takes 6 months to make and doesn't have ketchup waaaaah it must be because everyone is dumb and lazy
like this
TVA likes this.
ZeDoTelhado
in reply to mfed1122 • • •But to be clear, just because one piece of software does not fit your needs does not mean it has to be changed to fit your needs. But if it is complex, clunkly and/or unintuitive, it is only going to be usable by a niche. And if this is the case, stop telling your grandma to spin a matrix server or xmpp and do not tell her she is an idiot because she does not have the expertise or time to make it work.
like this
TVA likes this.
Anarki_
in reply to mfed1122 • • •like this
TVA likes this.
eggJuggler
in reply to mfed1122 • • •I 100% agree with you and at the same time it's important to remember that a lot of FOSS software is written by individuals as hobby projects. Implementing features, keeping everything up to date and secure, documentation and testing takes time, effort and skill.\
Most people need money to survive so they have a full time job and can only dedicated very limited resources to these projects.\
Too many people got used to free services that "just work" and forgot that they are the product now. If you don't want that look for alternatives that charge (even then you might still be the product) or better yet donate to open source projects in the hopes they will one day be on-par with their closed alternatives (there's examples where this worked). Until we have a UBI and people have the time to dedicate themselves to a cool project this is the only way.
I think it would be even better if companies and governments started shifting funds back to these projects when they switch from commercial to FOSS software (which is happening more recently) but most just happily pocket the sa
... Show more...I 100% agree with you and at the same time it's important to remember that a lot of FOSS software is written by individuals as hobby projects. Implementing features, keeping everything up to date and secure, documentation and testing takes time, effort and skill.\
Most people need money to survive so they have a full time job and can only dedicated very limited resources to these projects.\
Too many people got used to free services that "just work" and forgot that they are the product now. If you don't want that look for alternatives that charge (even then you might still be the product) or better yet donate to open source projects in the hopes they will one day be on-par with their closed alternatives (there's examples where this worked). Until we have a UBI and people have the time to dedicate themselves to a cool project this is the only way.
I think it would be even better if companies and governments started shifting funds back to these projects when they switch from commercial to FOSS software (which is happening more recently) but most just happily pocket the savings and this will not change until a fundamental cultural shift happens
Kristell
in reply to eggJuggler • • •Yeah that does give me a lot of patience with a lot of FOSS in general, though as far as I can tell that's never really applied to Matrix in particular. It was initially started by Amdocs, an Israeli communications firm, and then they gave it to a UK group that formed a company, and then crowd funded it.
... Show more...Or a legal one. If it were cheaper to enforce licenses FOSS devs would actually be able to use a separate personal/commercial license in order to actually get companies/governments to pay them, while still allowing them to be free for personal use. It's not exactly what WinRAR did (we were all breaking the TOS), but it's practically what they did. The pro
Yeah that does give me a lot of patience with a lot of FOSS in general, though as far as I can tell that's never really applied to Matrix in particular. It was initially started by Amdocs, an Israeli communications firm, and then they gave it to a UK group that formed a company, and then crowd funded it.
Or a legal one. If it were cheaper to enforce licenses FOSS devs would actually be able to use a separate personal/commercial license in order to actually get companies/governments to pay them, while still allowing them to be free for personal use. It's not exactly what WinRAR did (we were all breaking the TOS), but it's practically what they did. The problem is that FOSS devs don't have lawyer money, and you need lawyer money to do that
like this
TVA likes this.
eggJuggler
in reply to Kristell • • •Kristell
in reply to eggJuggler • • •We don't currently have another way of enforcing this sort of thing, though, aside making software paid by default. How else will you convince a company that isn't even concerned with its long-term growth in favor of quarterly earnings reports to pay money for free software? Especially when you consider that (at least in the US) that sort of thing could get them sued by their shareholders.
Frequently threats of legal action, backed by the ability to follow through on them, are enough to get most companies to fold, and pay. I don't know that telemetry would be required in most cases, just because employees do talk, and usually publicly. I'm not sure if Unreal Engine does, but I can say with some certainty that WinRar didn't, and most of their money was made through commercial licenses on nagware
Kristell
in reply to mfed1122 • • •like this
TVA likes this.
zod000
in reply to Kristell • • •It's not a Discord replacement, full stop. Someone could make a Matrix client that was a Discord replacement, but no one has even attempted to do so as far as I know. Element (the reference client) was very clearly a Slack replacement. I know because I literally moved my small company to it from Slack. I think that Discord's continued enshittification could lead to someone making such a client either for Matrix or XMPP. That being said, making something like this isn't a small project and I wouldn't expect one soon if one comes at all.
Discord hating rant here:
... Show more...Discord is kind of weird as far as these sorts of services go tbh. Its "weirdness" is part of why I have always has a dislike of it (the bigger part of why is the jerky users and company, just like Telegram). It focuses heavily on VoIP and video screen sharing in a way that most chat services so not, but is also a heavily emoji/sticker/whatever filled chat service. It was clearly made for the shit talking gamer crowd and it honestly excels there. If it had stayed there in that niche, I'd think nothing of i
It's not a Discord replacement, full stop. Someone could make a Matrix client that was a Discord replacement, but no one has even attempted to do so as far as I know. Element (the reference client) was very clearly a Slack replacement. I know because I literally moved my small company to it from Slack. I think that Discord's continued enshittification could lead to someone making such a client either for Matrix or XMPP. That being said, making something like this isn't a small project and I wouldn't expect one soon if one comes at all.
Discord hating rant here:
Discord is kind of weird as far as these sorts of services go tbh. Its "weirdness" is part of why I have always has a dislike of it (the bigger part of why is the jerky users and company, just like Telegram). It focuses heavily on VoIP and video screen sharing in a way that most chat services so not, but is also a heavily emoji/sticker/whatever filled chat service. It was clearly made for the shit talking gamer crowd and it honestly excels there. If it had stayed there in that niche, I'd think nothing of it. Then many FOSS projects and small companies then decided to use it in lieu of a proper support forum, probably because they were already were, or had previously been, shit talking gamers and used it all the time.
Kristell
in reply to zod000 • • •Someone else pointed out Cinny, which is... Pretty close to a discord replacement on Matrix, actually. Also I know Stoat mentioned a few federation options that they'd use if they ever do federate (not on the roadmap), with XMPP being the one it seemed like they'd favor.
Also ngl it doesn't even seem like Matrix would be a good slack replacement, unless the UI you're using makes it more slack-like
Re: Discord section, yeah... I liked discord at the start. It was mostly for voice calls, with a decent chat interface (based on IRC's). Then it started getting used wildly inappropriately, which annoyed me, and then all of the horrific privacy stuff came up and it's just... Ah. Whelp. This ship's sinking fast.
zod000
in reply to Kristell • • •Kristell
in reply to zod000 • • •hayvan
in reply to Kristell • • •baguettefish
in reply to hayvan • • •hayvan
in reply to baguettefish • • •And how is that a problem? Too powerful? Too scalable? Can handle more users than you need?
We use it for a corporation of 20 people just fine.
MonkderVierte
in reply to baguettefish • • •unexposedhazard
in reply to hayvan • • •PlutoniumAcid
in reply to hayvan • • •I run Mattermost at home since several years, and now I am switching to Zulip.
Mattermost is also enshittifying itself and imposing limits like those that caused us to flee from Slack.
Zulip is (afaik) true FOSS without venture capital, and has no restrictions. It's what we should habe done from the start.
Lemmchen
in reply to PlutoniumAcid • • •hayvan
in reply to PlutoniumAcid • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to Kristell • • •Matt
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
TVA likes this.
geneva_convenience
in reply to Matt • • •Element is still a main client and it's the same people who worked for Amdocs in the past.
Everything about it screams "backdoor" to me including a supposed dev of it showing up and talking about how ethical and super duper cool the Israeli company actually is news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3…
And
Because we all know bankrolling 15 devs for years is super cheap.
Their history is shady enough for me to not even consider it.
Matrix is just a protocol, not an application. And it seems Amdocs hasn't even b... | Hacker News
news.ycombinator.comlike this
TVA likes this.
Matt
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •What's Amdoc? Some association of American doctors?
Forgive me, I'm a citizen of an EU country no one gives a shit about and that has successfully "exported" a prime minister to a neighboring country.
country in Central Europe
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)geneva_convenience
in reply to Matt • • •like this
TVA likes this.
ArcaneSlime
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •What's more, even if you self host, unless you only allow chats within your instance, your server pisses metadata to any server it federates with, and as the "default" instance is matrix [.] org you basically have to federate with them.
Even if it isn't backdoored through the app (which afaik has never been audited) or server (which afaik also hasn't), or the protocol (which afaik has, but me no trust), if they're spying on the metadata that alone is an issue, and they absolutely could do that.
Kristell
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •unexposedhazard
in reply to Kristell • • •"show all rooms" is how you turn that off in element
Nheko also supports spaces and has a filter to only show DMs, it also allows tagging rooms to do custom grouping of chats. But at the moment only element properly embeds calls with the new element-call system.
like this
TVA likes this.
Kristell
in reply to unexposedhazard • • •unexposedhazard
in reply to Kristell • • •SchildiChat Next is a close fork of element x with some great added features, like custom color and layout options.
It has a "pseudo space" feature which allows grouping by a set of predefined filters and the filter "chats not added to spaces" would give you this. This pseudo space will then show up under the name "space orphans" :D
This settings page can be found under Settings > Turtle Tweaks > Spaces > Pseudo spaces
SchildiChat Next | F-Droid - Free and Open Source Android App Repository
f-droid.orgLemmchen
in reply to Kristell • • •like this
TVA likes this.
Kristell
in reply to Lemmchen • • •like this
TVA likes this.
Untold1707
in reply to Kristell • • •Give other matrix clients a try:
FluffyChat has separators for DMs, Groups, and Spaces.
Cinny has a Discord look. Mainly a desktop application so it doesn’t have an app, but works fairly well as a PWA.
If you’re on Android, Schildi Chat Next also has a lot of UI/UX tweaks that people enjoy.
SchildiChat Next for Android
schildi.chatKristell
in reply to Untold1707 • • •Fluffy does have a separator for groups, but from what I can tell it does show all of the space group chats in there. Not a huge deal for me (I don't use a lot of group DMs on discord), but will be for some friends
Schildi I'd need to redownload to check, but it had the same look as ElementX
Cinny, though... That's promising. Thank you!
WhyJiffie
in reply to Kristell • • •schildi has mostly the same look, but has extra settings.
I think there's a setting in element web/desktop to hide rooms in the main list when they are in a space, did you try that?
sobchak
in reply to Kristell • • •Kristell
in reply to sobchak • • •sobchak
in reply to Kristell • • •like this
TVA likes this.
apftwb
in reply to Kristell • • •eneff
in reply to apftwb • • •like this
TVA likes this.
Kristell
in reply to apftwb • • •HumbleBragger
in reply to Kristell • • •Kristell
in reply to HumbleBragger • • •HumbleBragger
in reply to Kristell • • •eldavi
in reply to HumbleBragger • • •Kristell
in reply to HumbleBragger • • •That's part of why I still gave phone numbers and emails, despite both not being secure in any capacity; most people do have them, even if they're not their preferred methods of communication.
I did lose a couple of people, but they were the ones I caught up with like... Once a year, anyway. Not that I didn't value them as friends, but there comes a point where it's like... I'm not missing a whole lot without you here, y'know. And it's not like I had that many friends, either, I only have a handful of people I talk to regularly. Maybe 15-20 a month if we're including friends of people I know who I see in passing?