@delta I figure @qyahxm is translating from Russian? "прямая секретность" is a silly attempt at word-for-word translation of "forward secrecy" that entirely loses its meaning but basically the answer is "yeah, very recently with Autocrypt 2": delta.chat/en/help#pfs

There is a reason Wikipedia in Russian doesn't translate the term in the title: ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_… – wherever the term is used, there seems to also be knowledge of its English counterpart and there's just no good translation for it.

@delta I'm a decently-informed-but-ultimately-casual observer in the security parts, but the name "forward secrecy" makes more sense to me for what it defines: "secrecy" of the message after it's "forwarded" (sent anywhere else in addition to its destinations — which would include things like wiretapping and late retrieval, which aren't typically seen as forms of forwarding). It makes sense to me mechanically.

I'm not on board with "reliable deletion" because information cannot be reliably deleted without direct control over every single device involved. What you're doing in ACv2 is preserving *secrecy* — rendering retrieval of older messages useless. I can understand how it can be seen as a form of deletion from a user's perspective and making sense to the user is a fair rationale. I just have doubts this choice of words is going to be any easier to explain.

I was explaining the same phenomenon wrt. post deletions on Fediverse literally yesterday

@qyahxm

@dside the term en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_… is unrelated to the concept of "forwarding a message".

It's a very technical term that clearly has gotten popularized. However, its precise meaning is subtle and not intuitively understood, even as the term is widely recognized as some kind of desirable property.

property of secure communication protocols in which compromise of long-term keys does not compromise past session keys

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

@delta yeah, I caught that bit of the intention. The goal is understandable. I'm just not sure the solution will work towards it.

I disagree with this being a more direct expression (admittedly, with my atypically wide interpretation of "forwarding") of what it's trying to say and it's most certainly at a massive disadvantage in adoption. The adoption of a new term for an existing concept is an uphill battle against an entrenched bit of natural language, so to speak. My concern is that it might end up causing more trouble than it's worth.

I'll refrain from commenting further until I actually watch the FOSDEM talk on AC2. Good news: for all the hosting providers Russia has been banning en masse lately autocrypt2's website is perfectly accessible at this time

@hko