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Messaging transports better be dumb and do the bare minimum to get the job done for end-to-end encrypting apps. Compared to #matrix homeservers #chatmail servers are two orders of magnitude more dumb, consume two orders of magnitude less resources and are blazing fast and don't require extra (central?!) identity and integration servers. With delta all intelligence, including general purpose https://webxdc.org/apps and protection against compromised networks and servers, lives on the end device.

webxdc apps

webxdc.org
#matrix #chatmail
This entry was edited (2 weeks ago)
in reply to Delta Chat

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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That being said, matrix offers room management like IRC did and fits better, and is developed for corporate environments, whereas delta is focused on private messenging purposes. Evolving delta to have discoverable many-user channels is feasible and there are promising experiments (using good old mailman) but it's not a primary focus for now. We have a strong focus on stability and improving the base experience to rival WhatsApp ... But we also prepare some surprises for the next release :)
in reply to Delta Chat

streetcoder
streetcoder
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I like it, but only a few friends installed the APP. So most chats are not encrypted. Broadcast is cool but of course only one way possible, not a mailing list.

Now I have a phone fast enough for Matrix but most chats are still xmpp, which is running smooth even on old systems.

Typically I contact family via xmpp, group work and hobby club via Matrix Spaces (because just a browser and gmail login needed), and all the Rest via Delta (everybody has email). No Signal (SIM card changes).

in reply to streetcoder

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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@streetcoder we are aware that in order for delta chat to gain more traction it needs more than just being an ethical alternative to WhatsApp or a federated alternative to signal .... It needs unique offerings not found elsewhere. We are working on that but good things take time and continously improving the base experience also needs focus. Thanks for sticking around!
@streetcoder
in reply to Delta Chat

kitkat
kitkat
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Matrix isn't developed for coporate environments and doesn't require identity and integration servers.
I don't know what trip you are on right now
in reply to kitkat

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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@kitkat new vector targets corporate customers and develops the bulk of element and matrix software, no? As to identity and integration servers our wording was not exact, sorry. Element and other UIs default (but do technically not require) using Id/integration servers but if you want to use stickers, jitsi integration or widgets you have to use them. As far as we gather most people have integration servers enabled, no? See here for some 3rd party research and discussion https://gitlab.com/libremonde-org/papers/research/privacy-matrix.org/-/tree/master/part1?ref_type=heads#integration-server

part1 · master · libremonde-org / Papers / Research / privacy-matrix.org · GitLab

GitLab.com
GitLab
@kitkat
in reply to Delta Chat

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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@kitkat for completeness and fairness, here is @matthew 's comments to the paper we referenced https://matrix.org/~matthew/Response_to_-_Notes_on_privacy_and_data_collection_of_Matrix.pdf ... Matthew makes some fair points and provides important clarifications. Note that our main topic of the top toot was comparing resource usage and claiming "message transport" dumbness is a good idea for end to end encrypting apps, but ymmv and matrix certainly has its strengths as we point out in another sub thread of the post.
@Matthew Hodgson @kitkat
in reply to Delta Chat

Echedelle ⚧
Echedelle ⚧
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that is not exactly true at all.

The MSC allows using custom stickers and emojis without integration server. Cinny and FluffyChat implement those. Has been like that for some years already.

in reply to Echedelle ⚧

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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good to know. In hindsight talking about integration/Id servers was not neccessary and more a side topic of.what we tried to convey and claim. Then again, what also counts for user experience and privacy is the gap between what users think how it works and how data flows when using own home server and how it actually works. Are there any studies around this?
This entry was edited (2 weeks ago)
in reply to Delta Chat

Austin Huang ❤️:verified:
Austin Huang ❤️:verified:
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@kitkat That was written in 2019; a lot of things are no longer applicable now. Identity server has been opt-in since at latest mid-2022 and most people don't use it (since looking people up by email isn't that useful). I don't think many (outside of corporate environments) have integration manager enabled either, as bots (like t2bot.io) can be invited without it, and the community prefers MSC2545 for stickers anyway (in fact, stickers in integration manager have been deprecated iirc).
@kitkat
in reply to Delta Chat

kitkat
kitkat
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About Matrix

The Matrix.org Foundation is overseen by its Guardians. The Spec Core Team works on maintaining the Matrix Specification in accordance with the Foundation rules and manifesto.
matrix.org
in reply to kitkat

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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@kitkat Not sure what "WhatsApp for government users" is supposed to entail exactly? Governmental and corporate work is usually structured by auditable procedures and formal processes and not the more informal personal chatting that WhatsApp popularized. Also, most people like to draw a sharp line between work related communication and personal/politically/hobby/entertainment related chatting so the conflation between the two spheres is much less obvious UX wise, according to our user research
@kitkat
in reply to kitkat

Delta Chat
Delta Chat
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@kitkat as to element-x, is it ten month after the "best messenger ever" video announcement close to replacing element proper? Thanks for providing links btw, appreciated. Several of DC core folks use matrix in some contexts and we are in principle friendly to its interoperability and FOSS aims but also a bit confused as to what is happening in reality, and truth be told, also suspicious as to how VC funding neccessarily influences their efforts behind the scenes. Then again, we are biased :)
@kitkat
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