The Unparalleled Ed Zitron Gives an Overview of the DeepSeek situation
Deep Impact
Soundtrack: The Hives — Hate To Say I Told You So In the last week or so, but especially over the weekend, the entire generative AI industry has been thrown into chaos.Edward Zitron (Ed Zitron's Where's Your Ed At)
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masterspace
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Lol, Ed Zirtron is very paralleled.
He's pessimistic and cynical to the point of being conspiratorial and delusional.
He's someone to listen to when you want to hear someone go on an unhinged rant about the tech industry, not someone you listen to when you want to actually understand how it works.
I mean look at this trash article, he spends 5000 words saying effectively nothing. Things he could have explained by just linking to pre-existing, better written articles, instead, he rehashes everything in a snarky tone while skipping over some of the most important points (like training through distillation).
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to masterspace • • •Wanting a better world, and holding up a light to the current one to show the differences between what could be and what is, is not at all what "cynical" means. "Cynical" is the opposite of what you mean. "Pessimistic" or "negative" is definitely more apt, yes.
Also:
... Show more...Wanting a better world, and holding up a light to the current one to show the differences between what could be and what is, is not at all what "cynical" means. "Cynical" is the opposite of what you mean. "Pessimistic" or "negative" is definitely more apt, yes.
Also:
Tell me: What should I be reading, instead, if I want to understand the details of this sort of thing, instead of that type of unhinged, pointless, totally uninformative rant about the tech industry?
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masterspace
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •No, I said cynical and I meant cynical.
I don't care that he criticizes the tech industry, I care that he feels the innate need to portray everyone in it as moustache twirling villains, rather than normal people caught up in the same capitalist systems and pressures as everyone else.
Even here, he spends all the article focusing on rumours about Chinese researchers making novel ways to outperform OpenAI and the like, and just makes a dismissive joke about the accusations that they effectively trained their model using OpenAI's model. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the morality of ignoring copyright to copy a copier, it's an incredibly important point because that is not a replicable strategy for actually creating new models. But rather than address that in any way, he dis
... Show more...No, I said cynical and I meant cynical.
I don't care that he criticizes the tech industry, I care that he feels the innate need to portray everyone in it as moustache twirling villains, rather than normal people caught up in the same capitalist systems and pressures as everyone else.
Even here, he spends all the article focusing on rumours about Chinese researchers making novel ways to outperform OpenAI and the like, and just makes a dismissive joke about the accusations that they effectively trained their model using OpenAI's model. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the morality of ignoring copyright to copy a copier, it's an incredibly important point because that is not a replicable strategy for actually creating new models. But rather than address that in any way, he dismisses it in a paragraph to spend another couple thousand words trying to dunk on the western tech industry in the snarkiest tone possible.
theComposer
in reply to masterspace • • •masterspace
in reply to theComposer • • •They HAVE done that. It's one of the techniques they use to produce things like o1 mini models and the other mini models that run on device.
But that's not a valid technique for creating new foundation models, just for creating refined versions of existing models. You would never have been able to create for instance, an o1 model from Chat PT 3.5 using distillation.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to masterspace • • •Look up the definition of the word cynical. It means, more or less, asserting that no one is motivated by sincere integrity. Accusing some specific people of lacking integrity, while holding up others as good examples of integrity that everyone should aspire to, is the opposite of cynicism.
He doesn’t address very much the idea that DeepSeek “distilled” their model from OpenAI’s model and others specifically because that is just a rumor with very minimal evidence for it.
... Show more...Look up the definition of the word cynical. It means, more or less, asserting that no one is motivated by sincere integrity. Accusing some specific people of lacking integrity, while holding up others as good examples of integrity that everyone should aspire to, is the opposite of cynicism.
He doesn’t address very much the idea that DeepSeek “distilled” their model from OpenAI’s model and others specifically because that is just a rumor with very minimal evidence for it.
The “rumors” you say he discusses about novel ways the Chinese researchers found to outperform OpenAI are based on an extremely detailed look at their paper and their code, as interpreted by experts. The thing you’re upset he doesn’t discuss is based on rumors. He doesn’t discuss it, except to note that it’s just a rumor but would be funny if it’s true, because he is not doing what you accuse him of.
If you’re upset that he was mean to Sam Altman, so much so that you simply don’t care if he also goes deep into a lot of important details and cares about integrity enough to hate a lot on people who don’t have it, then say so. The things you are accusing him of doing are not true, though, and pretty easy to disprove if you can look honestly at his work.
masterspace
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Yeah, I know the definition of the word, and I meant what I said. Stop trying to think I said something else because you disagree.
He is incredibly cynical.
He thinks everyone in the tech industry is a moustache twirling villain and always ascribes malice where incompetence would do. Like I said, he's who you listen to when you want to hear someone go on an unhinged rant about everyone being evil, not someone with an accurate view of human nature or motivations.
... Show more...There is very minimal evidence for literally EVERYTH
Yeah, I know the definition of the word, and I meant what I said. Stop trying to think I said something else because you disagree.
He is incredibly cynical.
He thinks everyone in the tech industry is a moustache twirling villain and always ascribes malice where incompetence would do. Like I said, he's who you listen to when you want to hear someone go on an unhinged rant about everyone being evil, not someone with an accurate view of human nature or motivations.
There is very minimal evidence for literally EVERYTHING he writes about in this article. The whole talk of them working around the GPU restrictions also has incredibly minimal evidence and is just a rumour.
Once again, his motivation is not informing you, it's dunking in the tech industry. It's literally his entire persona and career.
No, they're not. He just portrays it that way because that makes the tech industry sound bad. We flat out do not know how they trained Deepseek's model.
Once again, I don't care that he's mean to any tech titan, I care that he's misinforming people because it's the easiest path to dunking on an industry that he has a preexisting vendetta against.
PhilipTheBucket
in reply to masterspace • • •Here's him talking about people from the tech industry:
Back to quoting you:
... Show more...Correct. We do not
Here's him talking about people from the tech industry:
Back to quoting you:
Correct. We do not know the training data, which makes it silly to decide that it is definitely cribbed from OpenAI's model. What we do know is how the code works, because it is open and they wrote a paper. What would you consider "evidence," if not the actual code and then a highly detailed explanation from the authors about how it works, and then some independent testing and interpretation by known experts? Do you want it carved on a golden tablet or something?
I think I'm done with this conversation. You seem very committed to simply repeating your point of view at me. You've done that, so I think we can go our separate ways.
masterspace
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Picking out random people to lionize too much while you demonize literally everyone else, is still being cynical.
Because the paper does not prove what DeepSeek is claiming. The paper outlines a number of clever techniques that might help to improve efficiency, but most researchers are still incredibly skeptical that they would add up to a full order of magnitude less compute power required for training.
Until someone else uses DeepSeek's techniques to openly train a comparable model off non-distilled data, we have no reason to believe their method is replicable.
Extraordi
... Show more...Picking out random people to lionize too much while you demonize literally everyone else, is still being cynical.
Because the paper does not prove what DeepSeek is claiming. The paper outlines a number of clever techniques that might help to improve efficiency, but most researchers are still incredibly skeptical that they would add up to a full order of magnitude less compute power required for training.
Until someone else uses DeepSeek's techniques to openly train a comparable model off non-distilled data, we have no reason to believe their method is replicable.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ( or really just concrete, replicable, evidence), and we don't have that, at least not yet.
ranandtoldthat
in reply to masterspace • • •melp
in reply to masterspace • • •masterspace
in reply to melp • • •melp
in reply to masterspace • • •mayooooo
in reply to masterspace • • •masterspace
in reply to mayooooo • • •Lmfao, so now Lemmy thinks that the stock market is an arbiter of value and truth?
I'm sure you really thought that one through. You seem incapable of understanding nuance or thinking through your points, so maybe sit a few conversations out and reflect on the fact that you immediately defaulted to thinking of me as a moustache twirling villain.
Paradox
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •I wish more people would hold Sam Altman's feet to the fire, hold him to some semblance of accountability. Because the man has made an entire career of failing upwards, from launching a short lived startup that imploded, to suddenly becoming president of ycombinator, to suddenly being worth billions of dollars, and literally paying people in the third world (with monopoly money, of course) for their eyeballs
Oh and there's the whole thing where he might have molested his kid sister, which is always seemingly glossed over
Even Ed Zitron, who isn't afraid to go after someone (see his articles about the guy who destroyed Google search) seems to handle Sam with kid gloves
mayooooo
in reply to Paradox • • •jarfil
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Even more interesting than this whole kerfuffle, are the conversations taking place around it. They look like driven by AIs, with different agendas, trying to discredit and ridicule whatever opponent they identify, rather than interested in finding out what's really going on.
Have the AI Wars started already?
zante
in reply to jarfil • • •melp
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •The article discusses the recent disruption in the generative AI industry caused by DeepSeek, a Chinese AI company. Here are the key points:
- DeepSeek has introduced AI models that are competitive with OpenAI's but significantly more efficient and cheaper to run.
- This development challenges the prevailing narrative that AI models must be expensive and require massive infrastructure investments.
- DeepSeek's models are open-source and can be run locally on modest hardware, unlike OpenAI's closed and resource-intensive models.
- The company's V3 model is competitive with OpenAI's GPT-4 and Anthropic's Claude, while being 53 times cheaper to run.
- DeepSeek's R1 model competes with OpenAI's reasoning model (o1) at a fraction of the cost.
- The company has also released an image generation model that reportedly outperforms StableDiffusion and DALL-E 3.
- DeepSeek's approach has raised questions about the massive investments made by tech giants in AI infrastructure.
- There are concerns about DeepSeek's funding sources and potential
... Show more...The article discusses the recent disruption in the generative AI industry caused by DeepSeek, a Chinese AI company. Here are the key points:
zante
in reply to melp • • •ConstableJelly
in reply to melp • • •PhilipTheBucket
in reply to melp • • •My AI summarizer is superior to your AI summarizer. 😃
melp
in reply to PhilipTheBucket • • •Mathias Hellquist (Friendica)
in reply to melp • •@melp @PhilipTheBucket
Cheap and correct would've been better than just cheap.
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