RE: infosec.exchange/@molytov/1163…
Gee, maybe Signal shouldn’t keep harassing people to turn on notifications and take no for an answer?
Thoughts, @Mer__edith?
Molytov (@molytov@infosec.exchange)
[FBI Extracts Suspect’s Deleted Signal Messages Saved in iPhone Notification Database](https://www.404media.Infosec Exchange
Scott Francis
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •I must not see what you see (but also don't understand the logic in having a messaging app with no notifications; how would you know somebody messaged or called?)
last time I installed, I set notifications (just show there is one, do not show details) and that's the last I've ever seen or heard about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Aral Balkan
in reply to Scott Francis • • •@darkuncle “Yes / Ask me again later” is a hostile design pattern that shows a profound lack of respect for consent. Signal should be doing better.
You do not know better than the person making the decision whether or not they want notifications on.
(The opposite of “yes” is “no”.)
CC @Mer__edith
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Scott Francis
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •I guess I haven't seen that particular design pattern (just disabled notifications, restarted Signal, and got prompted -- "not now / enable" -- so yeah, confirming what you see. It's IMO on a par with prodding the user about their PIN, which is at worst mildly annoying but serves a useful purpose).
(I still maintain that a messaging app that supports audio and video calls, but has no notifications enabled, is effectively useless -- but end users should have the option to choose that. I'd argue a better UX here would be "yes / no / ask me later" and if you pick "no" you get an explicit warning that you will never be notified of any incoming calls or messages; at least that way unsophisticated users are aware of the risks and sophisticated ones can still make that tradeoff.
Tradeoffs are really key here, and we should support maximum end user control while also being very explicit about tradeoffs to avoid surprises.)
Aral Balkan
in reply to Scott Francis • • •Molytov (@molytov@infosec.exchange)
Infosec ExchangeKNova
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to KNova • • •Molytov (@molytov@infosec.exchange)
Infosec Exchangesharifgaza
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Molytov
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Molytov • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Oh, and would you look at that, right on cue…
The opposite of “yes” is “no”, not “not now” or “ask me later”.
#hostileDesign #consent #Signal #design #theOppositeOfYesIsNo
JimmyB (he/him)
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •No, thank you. Please don’t.
Behind every app that won’t take “no” for an answer, there’s a developer that doesn’t understand the concept of consent.
This is a legacy anti-feature, implemented at a time before Signal’s new leadership. I expect better, going forward.
#signal #hostileDesign #theOppositeOfYesIsNo #consent
Tom Stoneham
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •It is not just developers. Even #Signal needs a network effect to achieve its mission and missed notifications turn people away from an app. @Mer__edith has been clear about the need for this and the way it affects design decisions.
The question they face is whether this is the right compromise between making the app attractive to mass users and respecting those users' autonomy. A three way option might solve that.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Tom Stoneham • • •@tomstoneham There’s a reason the base of the ethical design pyramid is Human Rights.
web.archive.org/web/2025032810…
(Make it 10 different options if you like, as long as one of them is “no.”)
Ind.ie — Ethical Design Manifesto
web.archive.orgHyde 📷 🖋
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •100% agree on this.
Please dont copy bad features others built in their app.
Marcella Francesca
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •<Not know!
>We'll remind you later.
<I'd be having a headache and I'm not in group-sex either!
Deixis9
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •I noticed that too.
Also in other recent micro annoyance news; are ads now playing out in full on youtube and elsewhere before the option to 'skip' is offered?
or is that just me?
Aral Balkan
in reply to Deixis9 • • •🤷♂️
(I don’t see ads on the occasions I’m forced on YouTube.) ;)
RichBartlett
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to RichBartlett • • •RichBartlett
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •juristi
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •@RichBartlett
They did make Commodore Basic and sold it with one-time payment.
Aral Balkan
in reply to juristi • • •Msb
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Ellie 🏴🏳️⚧️
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Ellie 🏴🏳️⚧️ • • •David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Note that simply turning on notifications is not sufficient for this exploit route to work, you must also allow notifications to be shown on the home screen.
If you do this, then anyone with physical access to your device will see messages as they arrive, so your threat model must exclude people who can see your screen. If your threat model excludes people who can see your screen, it should probably also exclude people who can connect to the OS and extract system state from the device.
EDIT: This in no way invalidates your points about consent. Signal should really do better.