Snippet from Culture Cancer:
In fact I’ve been living in Catalonia for 15 years now and I noticed a concerning trend. At least from my own perspective. Despite people here knowing Spanish perfectly fine, at times they may only choose to speak Catalan with you, even when you try to speak Spanish with them.
When I was taking driving lessons and was in the car with other Catalan students, I would mention that I only understand Spanish and not Catalan. And yet they would only speak Catalan with themselves and the teacher. Marginalizing me. The teacher had to awkwardly translate from Catalan to Spanish for me, despite the fact that everyone in that car knew Spanish…So why not simply speak Spanish then!? For me is a no-brainer.
When you have to deal with the hospital here, they will always send you messages or print medical results or treatments into Catalan, despite you making them aware that you do not understand Catalan. A reminder that Spanish is also an official language in Catalonia.
It is so awkward to go into a shop, open the conversation in Spanish, and only be replied in Catalan. So they understand, but refuse to speak Spanish. By “they” I do not mean all, but a good chunk of the people I have interacted with. Granted I rarely interact with people. But still, this is something well known in Catalonia.
#catalonia #language #marginalization #culture #trom #tromsite #catalunia #catala #catalan #spain
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •«No pots pretendre que tothom canviï per tu. Ets tu qui t'has d'integrar».
Una dona que ha viscut sempre a regions monolingües.
Després de 15 anys, es discrimina ell tot sol. I ara plora? Au, va!
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •Well Joan you reply to a post in English by writing in Catalan. How come?
If you already know English, the best is to write in English. Else communication is either impossible or difficult.
Same is true for the Catalans who know Spanish. If you already know a common official language why not use it? It is a simple question.
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •Jo no som català, però sa meva llengua ho és. Gent que després de viure 15 anys a una nació i ve a imposar l'ús de l'idioma de la colònia (sigui foraster o sigui anglès) i esperant que sempre, sempre, sempre vos contestem en el vostre idioma, és com a poc, de maleducats. I ens hem cansat.
Si el vostre esforç és només per queixar-vos de la llengua pròpia del lloc on viviu, doncs, mira, aquí ho deixam. Adéu
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •The article from where the snippet is looks at why groups of people fight with other groups. I also look at the history of Catalonia, the Franco era, to understand perhaps why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan. If you are curious you can read the entire article.
No one forces you to speak another language now. Everyone in Catalonia is free to speak Catalan. School is primarily in Catalan. Everything else is in Catalan only or Catalan primarily. So no one is stopping the Catalans from exercising their cultural traditions or anything else.
This being said, perhaps you should reconsider your anger since no one here wants to attack "your culture and language".
If you know a common language, you should use it. I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan, all you do is to make them angry and disgusted at your "language and culture". And this is not good for anyone.
If you wonder how come I lived in this region of
... Show more...The article from where the snippet is looks at why groups of people fight with other groups. I also look at the history of Catalonia, the Franco era, to understand perhaps why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan. If you are curious you can read the entire article.
No one forces you to speak another language now. Everyone in Catalonia is free to speak Catalan. School is primarily in Catalan. Everything else is in Catalan only or Catalan primarily. So no one is stopping the Catalans from exercising their cultural traditions or anything else.
This being said, perhaps you should reconsider your anger since no one here wants to attack "your culture and language".
If you know a common language, you should use it. I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan, all you do is to make them angry and disgusted at your "language and culture". And this is not good for anyone.
If you wonder how come I lived in this region of Spain, Catalonia, for 15 years and I do not know Catalan, then that is a reasonable question. Just make sure you ask it to learn not to insult. So let me know if you are curious and I will explain. After all... you would want to know why people like me do not speak Catalan no?
If we are both respectful we could understand each other perhaps.
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Tio • • •> I also look at the history of Catalonia
I Galícia, País Basc, Balears, Astúries, País Valencià, Extremadura i qualsevol altra nació dins s'Estat Epanyol, idioma del qual, no fos castellà.
> why are the Catalans so hurt when others do not speak Catalan
Sa incomoditat ve quan preteneu integrar-vos només si vos giram la llengua. Però, repetesc, jo no som català.
1/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> No one forces you to speak another language now
Sí, si ho feu. Amb lleis, amb publicitat, amb diners i vivint a un lloc negant-vos a aprendre el seu idioma propi. O «exigint» contestar en anglès un tut. Estau massa avesats a que vos girem la llengua.
> no one here wants to attack "your culture and language"
La primera cosa que has dit és justament fer servir qualsevol altre idioma, un de comú.
2/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> If you know a common language, you should use it.
Mai aprendràs català (o cap altre idioma) si vos ho parlam.
> I speak english, romanian, and some spanish. If I knew Catalan I would speak Catalan.
El romanès s'assembla molt al català. No pots aprendre català si no te'l xerram.
3/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> The point is that by having this attitude towards those who do not speak Catalan
Esteim cansats d'haver d'explicar cada dia perquè volem viure la nostra vida en la nostra llengua. Per exemple, a gent que després de 15 anys, no vol aprendre català perquè ja li poden xerrar en anglès o espanyol.
4/
Joan CiberSheep (ell/això)
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •> Just make sure you ask it to learn not to insult.
No t'he insultat. Demanar que giri la llengua és maleducat.
> you would want to know why people like me do not speak Catalan no?
Això, m'ho trob cada dia. Ja em sap greu.
5/5
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •The rude part is to know a common language and refuse to use it. If I do not know Catalan, only Spanish, and you know Spanish but refuse to speak Spanish to me, who is the one who is rude? Spanish, is again, one of the 3 official languages of Catalonia - and that should even be besides the point.
So have you looked into why many people come to Catalonia, live here for many years, and do not learn Catalan? What did you find? Because I can tell you from my perspective and the people I know.
And if you can please reply in English to an English written post. This is quite unbelievable and it kinda shows why the situation with the Catalans in Catalonia is cancerous. You simply create an annoyance for both of us. Quite astonishing you decide to reply only in Catalan to an English post - you inserted yourself into "my world" and make it so hard for us to communicate. Use a common language or better not reply.
But honestly I am not surprised...
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •As far as I have observed the Catalans speak Catalan with their Catalan friends and family. No one forces them to speak Spanish. All Catalans can happily live in Catalonia and speak Catalan. Why do you feel so tired? Tired of what? In Nederlands, Andorra, Moldova, Canada, and so on people are perfectly fine to speak 2 or more languages without hating on those who do not speak one or another.
The more languages you speak the better, no? Be happy you know Spanish too, which is spoken by hundreds of millions of people. Isn't that an advantage?
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •Idk what you mean. But the translation is correct perhaps: I will never learn Catalan just becuase you force it upon me and only talk Catalan to me.
Again, so far it did not work on me and so many other people to speak Catalan with us and we suddenly to get in loved with the language and speak it. Doesn't work. Is impossible if you are so rude and have this passive-aggressive behavior to make people want to learn your language. And is more to that.
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •No, no one is forced in Catalonia to speak any other language than Catalan. But the Catalans may try to force others to only speak Catalan despite Spanish also being an official language in Catalonia and uderstood by more people in Catalonia than Catalan.
Tio
in reply to Joan CiberSheep (ell/això) • • •Even this conversation is an example of the terrible way to try and communicate. If the post is in English, and you translate in Catalan, why can't you at least translate your response to English so I have to do all of the work? That only creates discomfort...
Actually from my experience when you try to force Catalan on people you only make them hate that language. Why do you think if you refuse to speak a common language and force Catalan people would feel like they need to learn Catalan? I and the people I know truly hate this attitude and feel insulted by it. Isn't it something you should consider?
spla
in reply to Tio • • •Els catalans parlem català a casa nostra, és la nostra llengua pròpia i és llengua oficial. Respecte.
Tio
in reply to spla • • •Another one who sees a post in English and decides the best is to reply in Catalan. Can't make this shit up...perhaps my article is far more on point than even I thought...
I understand very well that Catalan, Occitan and Spanish are the official languages of Catalonia.
I also speak Romanian at home with my parents. English with my friends who are from different parts of the world. And Spanish in Spain, including Catalonia, as much as I can. You see, the advantage of knowing multiple languages and using them as we should. The purpose of language is to communicate, no?
I ask you kindly to reply to this English post in English, else you are making communication very difficult. And you are the one inserting yourself in this conversation.
Tio
Unknown parent • • •Ok so more Catalans who see an English post and reply only in Catalan. Proves my point in the article. You say people don't respect your language when they come to Calatonia, well do you respect my language when you comment on my english posts? No.
English and Spanish yes were imposed to many parts of the world due to those native speakers conquering those parts of the world. Same as the Catalans did with the Catalonian region that was inhabited by Muslims with their own language. Only the scale may be different, but not the scope.
You should try to see beyond these past traumas and use what language you know in order to communicate. Else you only create corrosion between people.
Tio
Unknown parent • • •Languages yes are learned by need, force, etc.. I wrote a 600 pages book about languages tromsite.com/books/#flipbook-l… - so the Catalans want to force it then? Is that a good thing or does it even work? Because they try to do that in a region of Spain (as catalonia is now), in EU, and in a very touristic zone.... I don't see any chance you are making those poor South Americans, Romanians, Bulgarians, or the British and French tourists want to learn Catalan. Spanish, maybe....since it is useful. But Catalan, for the vast majority of people who come from outside, is not very useful at all. For better or for worse.
Tio
Unknown parent • • •Thanks for writing in English. Makes more sense to communicate like that.
I understand some Catalan, a little, but have no practice speaking so I cannot reply in Catalan. Even Spanish is difficult for me to speak. Yes my case may be quite unique since I am not integrating even in Romania or other environment, I prefer to be alone. I have my online projects in English, which are all about providing free services for everyone.
But my family and so may others who come here come because they are poor and want to make money. And they either already know Spanish or will learn Spanish because for them is more useful since they may end up working in other parts of Spain outside Catalonia. These are the forces that make many people come to this region and not learning Catalan for example.
Is not their fault...it is an unfortunate situation for everyone. This is what the main article is about if you have time to read it.
So I do not want to force any Catalan to speak any particular language...I am only trying to use a common language. If you come to Romania I won't a
... Show more...Thanks for writing in English. Makes more sense to communicate like that.
I understand some Catalan, a little, but have no practice speaking so I cannot reply in Catalan. Even Spanish is difficult for me to speak. Yes my case may be quite unique since I am not integrating even in Romania or other environment, I prefer to be alone. I have my online projects in English, which are all about providing free services for everyone.
But my family and so may others who come here come because they are poor and want to make money. And they either already know Spanish or will learn Spanish because for them is more useful since they may end up working in other parts of Spain outside Catalonia. These are the forces that make many people come to this region and not learning Catalan for example.
Is not their fault...it is an unfortunate situation for everyone. This is what the main article is about if you have time to read it.
So I do not want to force any Catalan to speak any particular language...I am only trying to use a common language. If you come to Romania I won't ask you to speak Romanian if you don't know Romanian. If we both know Spanish/English we will speak that language. Is as easy as that....unsure why this would be such a big issue.
Georgi likes this.
Tio
Unknown parent • • •I am from Romania :)) I am not that "imperialist" :D. This has nothing to do with being an "imperialist" but more so to do with "not being a jackass by refusing to use a common language to communicate". As simple as that.
I leaned English by choice. Same with Spanish kinda. It is really useful to know English considering it is the most international language on Earth and most scientific papers are written in English. Yes it ended up being like that because of a lot of influence, from force to media, but now it is what it is. Is a tool. Use it!
Tio
Unknown parent • • •Most scientific papers are written in English. That is a fact.
But anyway, it is just a bloody language man. Calm down. You should be more worried that all products in Catalonia are made in China, or are USA-based ones. From Whatsapp to the sweets in the stores, or the stores themselves. Products, materials, apps, software...made by a few companies mostly from the USA. That is concerning, not a bloody language that is not owned by anyone. Use the damn language to communicate with people about real issues, rather than bitch about the language itself.
Be serious....
Tio
Unknown parent • • •Maybe you should read the article the snippet is from. I also talk about the Nazis. You confuse language, the tool, with those who made the language spoken by so many, via wars, colonization, influence, popularity, etc..
USA and Australia speak the same language…
Same is the case for South Africa, England, Sudan, Botswana, Nigeria, Singapore, Namibia or Ghana. And some 100 more tribes. French? Some 50 tribes speak French! The fact is that there are many tribes that speak the same language yet their cultures can be totally different.
Language does not flatten anything. You can have the same language and have wildly different cultures and ideas.
... Show more...Maybe you should read the article the snippet is from. I also talk about the Nazis. You confuse language, the tool, with those who made the language spoken by so many, via wars, colonization, influence, popularity, etc..
USA and Australia speak the same language…
Same is the case for South Africa, England, Sudan, Botswana, Nigeria, Singapore, Namibia or Ghana. And some 100 more tribes. French? Some 50 tribes speak French! The fact is that there are many tribes that speak the same language yet their cultures can be totally different.
Language does not flatten anything. You can have the same language and have wildly different cultures and ideas.
Learn my friend! The article looks at all of these. Give it a try!
Tio
Unknown parent • • •I don't have any problems with other languages, obviously since I speak English and not my "native" language Romanian. I do not complain about the Catalan language, I am explaining how some Catalan people refuse to speak a common language with others and this makes us hate each other. I do not even hate those Catalans. I'd like for us to calm down and understand each other.
Have you even red the article?
Tio
in reply to Tio • • •In reply to @pomubieng
Is anyone in Catalonia allowed to speak Catalan? Is any catalan discriminated against in Catalonia? What are you talking about?
If you want to make your language survive perhaps one good approach is to not marginalize those who do not speak it. Make people love your language, not hate it. I am telling you from my own experience that everyone I met coming to Catalonia from outside hates the Catalans and think the Catalans are total jerks. This is not good for anyone, no?
So you have to change
... Show more...In reply to @pomubieng
Is anyone in Catalonia allowed to speak Catalan? Is any catalan discriminated against in Catalonia? What are you talking about?
If you want to make your language survive perhaps one good approach is to not marginalize those who do not speak it. Make people love your language, not hate it. I am telling you from my own experience that everyone I met coming to Catalonia from outside hates the Catalans and think the Catalans are total jerks. This is not good for anyone, no?
So you have to change your attitude. Even the fact that you write in Catalan on an English post showcases so well that you have an aggressive and unfriendly way of dealing with this subject and with people in general. If you fail to see how much of a discomfort you create by writing in Catalan on an English post, then you are of course oblivious at what is happening in Catalonia with this terrible attitude that many others also have.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •So you decided to move to Catalonia 15 years ago and now you expect all Catalans to stop speaking Catalan when you are around.
And it's Catalans who have a problem, not you. Ok.
F**k off.
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •You questions are answered in the article. I can help you a bit if you refuse to read it.
I ended up in Catalonia due to poverty. I was not even aware people speak Catalan there. I thought they speak Spanish. Poor people from outside end up staying around the same poor people - work in the same places, etc.. So Romanians, Moroccans, South Americans, and others, spoke Spanish. They too probably didn't even realize others speak Catalan here...or what is this Catalan a Spanish dialect!?
After all we came to Spain and got a Spanish residency...
On top of that all Catalans also speak Spanish. And Spanish is also an official language in Catalonia.
So the situation was kinda like this. No to mention that for those who come to work due to poverty reasons it is not very advantageous to know a regional language since they may move to other parts of Spain for work.
I never said the Catalans have a problem. I actually said we should understand this complex situation and try to find a human way of living with each other. Read the article if you want to understand.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •I've read the article. Your point of view is mistaken IMHO and I'll try to explain why. We, Catalans don't speak Catalan to exclude foreigners or anything like that. We speak Catalan because it is our language. That's why. As simple as that. Why do we have to stop speaking our own language in our own country?
Imagine moving to Amsterdam, where everybody speaks English but the mother tongue of the majority of Dutch people is Dutch language, of course. Now, imagine...
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •⬇️
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •to live in Amsterdam for 15 years or more only speaking English, but I wouldn't expect to fully integrate in the Dutch society if I refuse to learn any Dutch. Something similar happens here in Catalonia.
You need to realize that Catalan language has been repressed throughout history. Lots of people have been fined, abused, mistreated, beaten or even imprisoned just for speaking their language. Some of these people are famous carachters, like the architect Antoni Gaudí, for example
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •but I'm not refering only to past times, even today, lots of Catalans are abused or mistreated just for speaking Catalan at police stations, airports, hospitals, schools, all kind of events etc. Just last week, in Barcelona, one woman was fired from her job just because she usually spoke Catalan with customers or coworkers. If you want to learn more about it, just search on the internet, it's full of stories about Catalans being discriminated just for speaking their language.
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •⬇️
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •50 or 60 years ago Catalan was widely spoken in places where today is almost lost. In Barcelona, for example, only 20 or 25% of the population speak Catalan on daily basis. This percentage would be around 50% just 20 or 30 years ago.
So yeah, some of us feel threatened. If we switch to Spanish every single time there's one person around that don't fully understands the language, then Catalan will simply disappear, beacause this happens almost every time. Nobody would speak...
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •on the streets, at jobs, at bars and restaurants, etc. And we don't want that to occur, we want to preserve our language and culture.
After 15 years living in Catalonia, I encourage you to learn some Catalan. If you already speak Spanish it's not that difficult. Besides, Romanian is also a Romance language so, it would be easier for you.
Catalans really apreciate foreigners that have made the effort to learn Catalan. I know plenty of people that live in Catalonia and have come...
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •⬇️
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •and you plan to live here longer, you are very welcome to stay and I encourage you again to embrace the Catalan language in order to become a Catalan-Romanian.
Una abraçada, tant de bo poder seguir aquesta conversa en català algun dia proper. Salut!
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Would you be available for a podcast to talk about all of this? I'd love to have a decent and friendly discussion about this topic and to learn from each other.
I want to reboot our TROMcast and I'd love to have someone from Catalonia to talk about this subject - tromsite.com/videos/#cast
Please let me know. I am genuinely interested in having an open mind discussion. I have a few wonderful friends in Cataonia. I do not hate on the Catalans. Tomorrow I meet with a family to show them and their kids the Moon. I'd love to speak Catalan if I could have the time and cut from this tension, but also I'd love to see the Catalans see each other more like humans than this label that is transitory in my view. Embrace both, but we are humans first of all.
Let me know please if you would be up for a discussion and we can talk about the details.
Thanks!
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •Contacte | L'executiva de l'entitat | Plataforma per la Llengua
Plataforma per la LlenguaTio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •In my view would be better to treat everyone like that. I see everyone as humans. We have evolved from the same creatures, share the same history. Amazing and real story.
Language is just a tool we use, and it won't change who we are simply by using a different language. You should be happy to know more languages because you can communicate with more people. More diversity.
So treat everyone as humans. We all need a safe environment, food, shelter, healthcare, security, education, etc.. If I were to march for something, I'd march for this.
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I would not mind learning Catalan, is just that I am too stressed and busy with so many things in my life. I'd love to speak Catalan if I could magically do so. Or Spanish. Also I travel with the motorhome and I do not plan to stay in Catalonia for long.
I encourage people to learn Catalan if they so wish. I think is a cool language - putting aside the fact that I got annoyed with this refusing to speak anything but Catalan to me, if I take the language itself is indeed a nice one - sounds like Romanian many times.
I think the best approach is to treat each other with respect and for the Catalans to make people love the language and not hate on it. I do not like the situation here honestly, and is not ok for anyone.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •You said yourself you weren't aware of the existance of Catalan language until you came here, 15 years ago.
Ok, so you realized Catalan existed because it's visible. You see it written on street signs, you hear some people speaking it, etc.
If we don't make it visible, lots of people would ignore the existance of this language, less and less people would find useful to learn it and eventually it will disappear. You perceive it's rude that we...
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Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •No one ever said to stop speaking Catalan in Catalonia. All I said, and I think any decent human in this world agrees with this, is to use a common language to talk to people and try not to marginalize people because of the language.
If 4 out of 5 people speak fluently Spanish and Catalan, but 1 of them only speaks Spanish, then the decent way is to speak Spanish when that human is part of your conversation.
This is happening in so many places on this planet and I am sure it is considered basic decency.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •Some would argue that after living in Catalonia for 15 years, maybe it's time for you to make a small effort and try to understand the language. I don't even ask you to speak it but just comprehend the words so the rest of us don't have to change our language because of you.
I don't know...15 years is not enough time? I know people speaking Catalan after 8 or 9 months living here. I understand not everyone has the same situation but, you know...15 years...
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I understand is easy to use this argument for you, but for one is not easy to learn a new language. Look at the entire Spain they learn english in schools for so many years and in my experience very few can speak english.
I also learned french in school for 8 years and I cannot speak any french. Or anyone I know....
Is not even about learning a language, is also using it. And I rarely interact with the Catalans here.
Second, even if I know Catalan I am not a vessel for the Catalan culture, so that won't help it in that sense.
So you have to understand the more complex situation here. Is not as easy as trying to force me learn a few words in Catalan as that won't make any difference I believe.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •The thing is you've been living in Catalonia for 15 years and you are complaining about Catalan being spoken when you are around.
And you are asking ALL CATALAN SPEAKERS to stop speaking their mother tongue when you are around so YOU don't have to make a small effort and learn the language. Not even speak it (no one is asking you to speak it) but just comprehend the language.
And you think this would be the fair outcome here.
Sorry but it is not.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I am not sure why you keep on saying this when I always correct you and you don't understand it seems.
I am talking about the Catalan refusing to speak on of the official languages of Catalonia (Spanish), or a common language (maybe English) WHEN you are interacting with them. NOT WHEN I walk around in Catalonia and there are Catalans walking around me and I have nothing to do with them. Are you really that confused about this simple situation?
When they teach important stuff about protecting the marine environment to the divers working in this area, and instead of speaking a language all divers/students understand, a language that is (again) an official language in Catalonia, they choose to enforce Catalan despite some students saying they do not understand Catalan.
When I do my driving lessons here and in the car the students and teacher speak Catalan when I say sorry I only understand Spanish, this is a jerk move. You marginalize me. Everyone speaks Spanish fluently and they refuse to speak. If you do that in any other country it would be unacceptable.
D
... Show more...I am not sure why you keep on saying this when I always correct you and you don't understand it seems.
I am talking about the Catalan refusing to speak on of the official languages of Catalonia (Spanish), or a common language (maybe English) WHEN you are interacting with them. NOT WHEN I walk around in Catalonia and there are Catalans walking around me and I have nothing to do with them. Are you really that confused about this simple situation?
When they teach important stuff about protecting the marine environment to the divers working in this area, and instead of speaking a language all divers/students understand, a language that is (again) an official language in Catalonia, they choose to enforce Catalan despite some students saying they do not understand Catalan.
When I do my driving lessons here and in the car the students and teacher speak Catalan when I say sorry I only understand Spanish, this is a jerk move. You marginalize me. Everyone speaks Spanish fluently and they refuse to speak. If you do that in any other country it would be unacceptable.
Do you see what I mean now? No one tells the Catalans to not speak Catalan. All we ask, as humans, is to use a common language where possible in order to...wait for it...communicate!
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •I understand it perfectly well. You are asking all Catalan speakers to take diving courses, driving lessons, museum tours, university classes etc. in Spanish or English just because there's one person in the room that, after having lived in Catalonia for 15 years, refuses to make a little effort and learn the language.
Sorry but it is you the one who has a problem here (not understanding an official language of this country after living here for 15 years), not Catalan speakers.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I ask all Catalan people to be respectful to the others in such situations and use the language that suits all people. And please don't ignore that Spanish is also an official language in Catalonia.
Here's a math/reason problem for a 5 year old:
If you have 30 people in a classroom. 25 speak Catalan and Spanish fluently. 5 only speak Spanish. What language should the teacher speak?
A. Catalan, and 5 people would not understand the courses.
B. Spanish and all 30 people would understand the courses.
Choose.
I feel only in Catalonia people would choose A over B. Everywhere else people have a basic decency towards other humans.
I do not ask for Catalans to speak English, ALTHOUGH they learn it in school for YEARS so you would expect they know English and want to use that language else why even teach that language in schools....I do not ask for that, I ask for the Catalans to also speak Spanish, one of the official languages in Catalonia, where it makes sense.
Maybe you still don't see my point?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •You still don't get it. Maybe it's not easy for you to understand it.
For some of us, Catalan language is a very important thing. We love our language, we consider it an essencial part of our culture and heritage, we want to preserve it, and yes, we want it to be more and more present and also a requirement for both public and private companies operating in Catalonia.
So yes, we choose option A and encourage these 5 people to learn it because option B means the death of our language
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •You can both love your language and also treat others decently. If you are afraid that your language will die, how are you helping it when you choose option A? Do you believe the 5 marginalized ones will somehow get to learn Catalan now? Is there any evidence for that? From my experience it does the opposite, you make people hate on your language and culture.
If that's your only excuse: that you want to force Catalan regardless, because you are afraid the language will ceased to be used, then perhaps is better to look if your approach is helping your cause.
Catalonia relies on Spain, on EU, on tourism, on poor people who work in the tourism industry, construction, etc.. These are the forces that will kill the Catalan language. Other languages have died and are still dying because of the same reasons. Maybe this is a tragedy, but it is the normal evolution of all languages.
Latin, who was such a huge language, is dead now. Was spoken by almost the entire european population.
So my point is that although I understand your fear of losing the Catalan language,
... Show more...You can both love your language and also treat others decently. If you are afraid that your language will die, how are you helping it when you choose option A? Do you believe the 5 marginalized ones will somehow get to learn Catalan now? Is there any evidence for that? From my experience it does the opposite, you make people hate on your language and culture.
If that's your only excuse: that you want to force Catalan regardless, because you are afraid the language will ceased to be used, then perhaps is better to look if your approach is helping your cause.
Catalonia relies on Spain, on EU, on tourism, on poor people who work in the tourism industry, construction, etc.. These are the forces that will kill the Catalan language. Other languages have died and are still dying because of the same reasons. Maybe this is a tragedy, but it is the normal evolution of all languages.
Latin, who was such a huge language, is dead now. Was spoken by almost the entire european population.
So my point is that although I understand your fear of losing the Catalan language, your approach does not help your case, to the contrary it makes people hate you and your language. This is what I can observe at least. And statistically perhaps you can see that the use of Catalan is declining.
If I were you, I would simply try to promote the Catalan language but use Spanish/English too, or other language, whenever makes sense. And understand that you are not your language and your culture. I bet most people in Catalonia scroll on tiktok, chitchat on whatsapp, watch americanized netflix content, order clothes from temu, want iphones, and so on. So what culture are you defending really? And I do not ask this as a jerk, honestly.
But when I see my very Catalan friends over here who cannot wait to go to the Cinema and watch those American movies...and their kids want to be Spiderman or Batman, or they talk about Netflix series, holidays overseas, new gadgets and shit like that....I see no difference between them and anyone on this planet, from Romania to USA.
So what are you actually defending or fearing of losing?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •So yes, you still don't get it.
It's not my job to convince someone with such a closed mentality. I've tried to argue and convey the point of view of many Catalans on this topic. For many of us Catalan language is not just a tool to communicate, it's more than that, it's an essencial part of our identity.
It's ok if you don't agree or don't like it but you certainly will not change this feeling very present in a lot of Catalans, so deal with it.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I don't think I have a closed mentality. It is a fact that language is a tool and it does not matter what language you speak/write, the behavior and values do not come from language itself. Not even the culture as I explain in the article. I moved from speaking Romanian to speaking English, my values did not change because of that.
It is you who believe that language has more importance than that.
Another fact is that languages change and die. Catalan will too, regardless how much effort you put into it. Perhaps is good to be honest and accept this fact.
It is also a fact that when you force the Catalan language in this manner, you make people like me hate on you and your language.
So if you fight to preserve the Catalan language is best to understand what is the true value of a language and a culture, and then to see what is the best way to try to preserve it for a while.
Good luck! I do not hate the Catalans, I see all people as humans. But the tension that is being created due to "language" between people here is cancerous. Like I explain in the ar
... Show more...I don't think I have a closed mentality. It is a fact that language is a tool and it does not matter what language you speak/write, the behavior and values do not come from language itself. Not even the culture as I explain in the article. I moved from speaking Romanian to speaking English, my values did not change because of that.
It is you who believe that language has more importance than that.
Another fact is that languages change and die. Catalan will too, regardless how much effort you put into it. Perhaps is good to be honest and accept this fact.
It is also a fact that when you force the Catalan language in this manner, you make people like me hate on you and your language.
So if you fight to preserve the Catalan language is best to understand what is the true value of a language and a culture, and then to see what is the best way to try to preserve it for a while.
Good luck! I do not hate the Catalans, I see all people as humans. But the tension that is being created due to "language" between people here is cancerous. Like I explain in the article. Is not worth it. We should be kind with each other and help each other, as humans, not as catalans, romanians, americans or whatever....
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •Yes, you see it this way, that's clear, but it's just your opinion. Many Catalans don't see it the way you see it and that's ok. Who's right and who's wrong depends on everyone's judgement.
One thing is clear, though. You won't be able to change the minds of many many Catalans on this topic so, since it's you living in Catalonia, better deal with it.
I don't want to continue this conversation. There's nothing else I want to argue with you so I won't reply anymore.
Have a nice day.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •You don't likke people speaking Dutch? Then maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to move to Amsterdam and to live there for 15 years.
Or perhaps, after 15 years living in Amsterdam, you could change your mind a little bit, make a small effort and try to learn some words in Dutch.
That would be my advice.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Has nothing to do with me liking the Dutch language. For one, if English was also one of the official languages in Netherlands and I would speak English, then I feel is ok and enough and I am sure the Dutch won't be jerks and refuse to speak English with me.
Second I bet even only knowing english which is not an official language in Netherlands, you will be a lot more comfortable living in Netherlands than in Catalonia since the people there cannot be as rude as the Catalans. I bet they will speak English with you. I do not want to "integrate" into the Catalan culture, or Romanian culture or any other culture. I am a human not a citizen. This is how I've always been. All I ask is for basic human decency and when we know a common language to use it in order to communicate.
Spanish alongside Catalan are official languages in Catalonia. Just a reminder. You like it or not, that's the case.
So yah, I never complained that Catalans speak Catalan with the people who speak Catalan. That would be ridiculous. I complain about Catalans refusing to speak any other language,
... Show more...Has nothing to do with me liking the Dutch language. For one, if English was also one of the official languages in Netherlands and I would speak English, then I feel is ok and enough and I am sure the Dutch won't be jerks and refuse to speak English with me.
Second I bet even only knowing english which is not an official language in Netherlands, you will be a lot more comfortable living in Netherlands than in Catalonia since the people there cannot be as rude as the Catalans. I bet they will speak English with you. I do not want to "integrate" into the Catalan culture, or Romanian culture or any other culture. I am a human not a citizen. This is how I've always been. All I ask is for basic human decency and when we know a common language to use it in order to communicate.
Spanish alongside Catalan are official languages in Catalonia. Just a reminder. You like it or not, that's the case.
So yah, I never complained that Catalans speak Catalan with the people who speak Catalan. That would be ridiculous. I complain about Catalans refusing to speak any other language, INCLUDING the other official language in Catalonia (Spanish) when interacting with those who do not speak Catalan. BIG DIFFERENCE!
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •Are you aware that, roughly speaking, 50% of the Catalan populaion wants Catalonia to become and independent country and Catalan language to be the main official language of that future republic?
So can you comprehend that, for some people, could be annoying to see a person that, after having lived here for 15 years, refuses to make a little effort to learn basic Catalan and still asks everybody to stop speaking Catalan when he is around?
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I am aware that there are many in Catalonia who want independence. I do not understand what this means and I am not sure if anyone does. UK is an island...is independent. And still so many there complain about culture and language loss, immigration, bad living conditions, corruption....I detail in the article.
Andorra is independent. They speak Catalan. But barely more than half of them.
It is true percentage wise more speak Catalan now than in the past in Andorra.
However this "independence" is at best an ideal and an idea, since from products to services, cultures and languages, and values in general, we are all a mix. Catalonia cannot be independent no more than any other tribe in the world.
What would independence bring to the Catalans that would be positive in your view?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •"It is true percentage wise more speak Catalan now than in the past in Andorra." --> that's because over there it is the only official language and nobody would dare to ask Andorrans to stop speaking their language in driving lessons.
There you go. So yes, making Catalan more present and required has worked well in Andorra.
I don't want to continue this conversation. There's nothing else I want to argue with you so I won't reply anymore.
Have a nice day.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •The point with Andorra was that even there, them being independent, Catalan is not even "the language" but one of the languages. It is an example that perhaps if Catalonia were to become independent it would see only a modest rise in the use of Catalan. No?
You just don't get it. Maybe you are too angry about the situation with the Catalan language. I never asked the Catalan students that were with me in the car to stop speaking Catalan. You speak what language you want. I just told them I do not speak Catalan, only Spanish (a language they also spoke fluently), and yet they chose to speak Catalan and thus to marginalize me. Their decision is what makes them jerks, not me since I did nothing more than point to the fact that I only understand the other OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF SPAIN, Spanish.
If I were in Andorra I would have said the same, and if they would react similarly, it would be the same exact outcome for me. They are jerks. When you willingly choose to not
... Show more...The point with Andorra was that even there, them being independent, Catalan is not even "the language" but one of the languages. It is an example that perhaps if Catalonia were to become independent it would see only a modest rise in the use of Catalan. No?
You just don't get it. Maybe you are too angry about the situation with the Catalan language. I never asked the Catalan students that were with me in the car to stop speaking Catalan. You speak what language you want. I just told them I do not speak Catalan, only Spanish (a language they also spoke fluently), and yet they chose to speak Catalan and thus to marginalize me. Their decision is what makes them jerks, not me since I did nothing more than point to the fact that I only understand the other OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF SPAIN, Spanish.
If I were in Andorra I would have said the same, and if they would react similarly, it would be the same exact outcome for me. They are jerks. When you willingly choose to not speak a language we all understand, you are willingly marginalizing someone. Simple.
Thanks for engaging in this conversation and writing in English. I appreciate that.
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I have 2 questions for you:
1. Why is this so threatening to you if Catalan is spoken less and less and eventually will fade away? Is a serious question and I do not want to hurt your feelings, I am simply trying to open up a perhaps uncomfortable situation.
2. Why do you think this approach of forcing the Catalan language when you talk with normal people is going to make Catalan persist? As I said, for me and everyone I know outside Catalonia it makes us hate the Catalans and the language. Which is not ok for anyone.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •See? This is the key point of this discussion.
You see languages just as a tool to comunicate with other people. On the contrary, many Catalans see our language as part of our culture. It's something unique in the world (nobody else in the world speak it), it's part of an ancient heritage that's been brought to us through history, just like other traditions (dances, songs gastronomy, art...).
Yes we all could end up...
⬇️
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •speaking English, eating hamburgers, watching Netflix, celebrating thanksgiving or the 4th of july, dressing up like idiots for halloween and playing baseball.
Maybe you don't care about your cultural heritage as a Romanian and it's ok for you to end up like this but we do care. We would like romanian language, culture, art, heritage, gastronomy, etc. to survive. So we think the same for Catalan and many other languages and cultures around the world.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Speaking English is important since it is by far the most international language on earth. Because I know English I was able to learn so much. Look how many documentaries I have watched - videoneat.com/. And so many things I've read. My best friends are from Russia, India, France, USA, Czech Republic, Germany, all because we speak English.
Regardless how English ended up being so popular, the reality still stands that it is useful to know this language.
I do not care as much the Romanian "heritage" honestly because I understand it is a mix or all sort of cultures, like I explained in more detail in the article. I am ok to celebrate these expressions of culture, same as in Catalonia, but do not take them to the extreme.
In Catalonia too people watch Netflix, started to celebrate Halloween, eat burgers or all kids of foods from outside, use Whatsapp (I am so annoyed by that), Facebook, Youtube, dream about having iPhones, their clothes come from Temu, and so on and so forth....
... Show more...Speaking English is important since it is by far the most international language on earth. Because I know English I was able to learn so much. Look how many documentaries I have watched - videoneat.com/. And so many things I've read. My best friends are from Russia, India, France, USA, Czech Republic, Germany, all because we speak English.
Regardless how English ended up being so popular, the reality still stands that it is useful to know this language.
I do not care as much the Romanian "heritage" honestly because I understand it is a mix or all sort of cultures, like I explained in more detail in the article. I am ok to celebrate these expressions of culture, same as in Catalonia, but do not take them to the extreme.
In Catalonia too people watch Netflix, started to celebrate Halloween, eat burgers or all kids of foods from outside, use Whatsapp (I am so annoyed by that), Facebook, Youtube, dream about having iPhones, their clothes come from Temu, and so on and so forth....
And I do not agree or disagree with this, I am saying how it is...
We can both celebrate culture and diversity without separating ourselves into groups and alienate others.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I understand that people see Catalan as important and part of their culture. We can say the same about Romanian and many other languages. I only hoped to challenge a bit these notions in order to relax our conversations around language since like I explained in the article these languages are mutations and mixes of other languages and they always change. Same is with traditions and so fort. And perhaps is important to recognize that.
Catalan is also spoken in other parts of the world by the way. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_… just a side note.
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I understand, but why is it declining? From what I understand is because of different forces such as the fact that Catalonia is too integrated into Spain to be able to detach now, and so everyone in Catalonia already speaks spanish....Also tourism, migration, the fact that Spanish is far more useful for most people than Catalan....
These are real forces that I am not sure you can do much about...Not saying this as an insult or anything like that....
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Where is this happening? In Catalonia? I've never heard of this. Give me some sources I'd like to know the details. However this does not justify to refuse to speak a common language with someone. What do I have to do with those situations? Why should I be marginalized, even as someone who may just visit Catalonia and speaking Spanish?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •Only in 2024, around 3.000 people reported situations of mistreatment and discrimination for speaking Catalan.
europapress.es/catalunya/notic…
Ans this is just the people that actually report it. The vast majority of this type of cases pass without being reported at all.
The law says that in Catalonia you have the right to speak Catalan everywhere and, in reality, this right is not guaranteed many times.
Plataforma per la Llengua recibió 2.902 quejas lingüísticas en 2024, un 25% más
Europa Press CatalunyaTio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I would have to read the report but cannot find it in full.
However these situations need to be solved as they are, in the places they occur, and should not be an excuse for marginalizing random people for not speaking Catalan. No?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •If you know Spanish fluently but refuse to speak Spanish with someone who only knows Spanish, that is intention of marginalization. When Spanish is also an official language in Catalonia and you tell the hospital you do not understand Catalan, only Spanish, and they send you the medical results and appointment details only in Catalan, that is malicious. And so forth.
No one tries to marginalize the Catalans. Like I explain in detail in the article. And explained all of the comments I replied to you I believe....I am unsure if you red the article...
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Sure, could be the case, but again Spanish is also an official language of Catalonia. English is not an official language in Netherlands. Also I am not talking about situations in which you want to integrate into the Catalan culture, but random situations where you interact with the Catalan people who will not speak Spanish if you only understand Spanish.
Yes I explain this in the article. But this is the far past. Why drag this into the present and create these cancerous situations between people?
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •I came across this exact situation. Yes they spoke English. In Romania where I am from, if 1 of the people in a group does not speak Romanian and the rest speak English, we speak English. Always.
I understand this reasoning too, but in Catalonia everyone speaks Spanish fluently. If I speak the one of the official languages of Catalonia, Spanish, and the rest refuse to speak it, isn't that rude?
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to TROM • • •Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •Paula Papaia
in reply to TROM • • •Tio
in reply to Paula Papaia • • •Paula the Muslims who were in Catalonia before Catalans arrived had to leave or ingest the Catalan language. Unfortunately all human history is like that - language is imposed in this way in most cases.
It is ugly, but if you think the solution is to marginalize those who do not speak Catalan, I am afraid this goes against your goal. First you have to understand why the Catalan language is not spoken by many people, to get why people refuse to speak Catalan or do not care. I am an outsider and everyone I know thinks like me. Would be good to talk to these people and understand form them in order to adapt your strategies.
We can all point the finger at each other and yell "rude", but we don't change anything unless we learn to talk to each other and find a way forward for all of us.
Backhand Topspin 🟨
in reply to Tio • • •"First you have to understand why the Catalan language is not spoken by many people, to get why people refuse to speak Catalan or do not care."
We don't need your lectures. We absolutely know the cause: Spain and France.
Tio
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •So the cause why I do not speak Catalan, or so many foreigners who come to Catalonia, is because of France and Spain? Sure, Franco imposed Spanish to Catalonia but that was decades ago, what can you do about it now?
The reason many people do not speak Catalan is what I explained in the article (most likely). Poverty, migration, tourism, the Trade Society itself, etc..
TROM
in reply to Backhand Topspin 🟨 • • •That is the end result. Regardless of the intention.
You don't have to. But if you know a common language why not use that? I do it all the time. I speak English or Romanian depending on the situation, regardless what tribe I'm in.