Blacksky has already built their own ATProto stack that's fully independent from Bluesky.
Now Eurosky is making progress as they roll out their own PDS.
I see more independent infrastructure springing up on atp.fyi/network, including AppViews.
For anyone hoping that we'll get another wave of people coming to the fediverse once Bluesky folds/enshittifies, that might not necessarily be the case as people will have more options to stay in the Atmosphere.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •@rolle I guess if the fediverse keeps pushing people away, and ATProto gains wide enough adoption, and it becomes easy to run your whole stack, I might just look into that.
Until then, I'll have to stick with the fediverse, as that's the only truly grassroots option.
Lentävä Kalakukko
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@rolle
I just don't get the whole "fediverse pushing people away" angle, at all. Care to elaborate?
There are millions of users and thousands of servers on the fediverse. All kinds of people, from all over the world. It's not one homogenous mass "pushing people away" or "being unwelcoming". You just couldn't make that happen even if you tried.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Lentävä Kalakukko • • •@pahoittelemme Are you thinking of millions of inactive users?
fedidb.com
mastodon-analytics.com
The hostility, particularly towards Black people has been well documented.
logicmag.io/policy/blackness-i…
privacy.thenexus.today/start-m…
Every few days there is a woman talking about the sexism on here. Seems really hard to miss this stuff.
@rolle
5 things white people can do to start making the fediverse less toxic for Black people
Jon (The Nexus Of Privacy)Lentävä Kalakukko
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@rolle
We're probably speaking past each other.
The fediverse still isn't some homogenous blob where what you said applies universally. It's all down to individual instances and their moderators.
Granted, the largest instances probably have the worst time dealing with moderation.
But I have a hard time seeing @rolle walk past bad behaviour on the instance he runs, ditto for the org that runs my instance.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Lentävä Kalakukko • • •@pahoittelemme A lot of the problematic behavior is insidious, though.
Asking Black people to prove there is racism. Asking women to "just block" every single individual harasser. Telling people to "just" stop using Big Tech products. To add alt text. Not acknowledging some of the good things they're already doing and demanding perfection. Tone policing. Demanding very specific use of CWs.
All of these people are just trying to be helpful, right? Not really breaking any "rules".
@rolle
Lentävä Kalakukko
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@rolle
🤷
mastodon.online/@billyjoebower…
billy joe bowers 🗽 (@billyjoebowers@mastodon.online)
MastodonStefan Bohacek
in reply to Lentävä Kalakukko • • •@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
@rolle
Mastodon Analytics
Mastodon AnalyticsRoni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •I don't have that grim of a sentiment that Stefan has, I'll always root for the Fediverse. However, he has a point, because in retrospect the whole reason Bluesky's ATProto was born was this:
"The AP community has always been somewhat suspicious of Bluesky, for reasons that are understandable. AP’s community is volunteer driven and the users joined to escape Twitter. So, here we come, a startup funded by Twitter, with strong opinions on how the tech should be done. I’ve heard concerns that we’d “embrace, extend, & extinguish.” I’ve heard concerns that we’d force through changes that people don’t want by dint of being a funded company. You can criticize us for going a different direction but I think it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions above."
github.com/bluesky-social/atpr
... Show more...I don't have that grim of a sentiment that Stefan has, I'll always root for the Fediverse. However, he has a point, because in retrospect the whole reason Bluesky's ATProto was born was this:
"The AP community has always been somewhat suspicious of Bluesky, for reasons that are understandable. AP’s community is volunteer driven and the users joined to escape Twitter. So, here we come, a startup funded by Twitter, with strong opinions on how the tech should be done. I’ve heard concerns that we’d “embrace, extend, & extinguish.” I’ve heard concerns that we’d force through changes that people don’t want by dint of being a funded company. You can criticize us for going a different direction but I think it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions above."
github.com/bluesky-social/atpr…
@pahoittelemme
Already a decentralized federated protocol
dmbr0 (GitHub)Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •@rolle Yeah, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of LLMs/GenAI, but people who viciously attack each individual user one by one instead of calling their representative and demanding stricter environmental protection laws and labor laws don't come across as serious people, to say the least.
@pahoittelemme
init6
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Tio Ébio
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Tio Ébio • • •@eberfreitas I think it's a combination of a more relaxed audience on there, and tools for managing harassment, like reply controls.
I'm sure there's plenty of harassment on there, just like there has been on Twitter. But at least you can lock your replies when things get out of hand, and move on.
@pahoittelemme @rolle
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •I hope these get implemented some day:
github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…
github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…
@eberfreitas @pahoittelemme
“Disable replies” feature
nclm (GitHub)Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •Tio Ébio
in reply to Roni Rolle Laukkarinen • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Case in point: Northsky just sent out an email update about beginning their "phase two": 26% of their users have already been migrated to their new PDS, now they're moving on to creating their own app, moderation labeler, support for private data, "and more".
#bluesky #northsky #fediverse
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •that’s all very enlightening, thanks for sharing Stefan.
I personally dislike ATProto for its heavy reliance on algorithms, which perpetuate toxic online behaviors of Big Tech platforms. The reason why I love the Fediverse so much is its focus on genuine human connections, away from engagement bait and growth “strategies”.
Plus don’t get me started on the privacy nightmare that is Bluesky/ATProto at the moment, with blocks being public information - le sigh 😢
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •@_elena Oh don't take me wrong, I am most definitely still rooting for the fediverse.
Just going back to my original point, while we're here arguing about whether Bluesky/atmosphere is decentralized, there are people putting in the effort to make it so.
Stefan
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Stefan • • •sknob
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to sknob • • •@sknob
Right now I think the motivation is that that's where a lot of people are right now.
But how we got here, well, the fediverse has been too slow to adapt to people's needs, and sometimes outright hostile to them.
For example, the top requested Mastodon feature, to disable replies on posts that got out of hand has been open since 2018. I mean yeah, it's technically challenging, but we've had nearly a decade to figure it out. Priorities.
@_elena
sknob
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@_elena
Be Wary of Bluesky
kevinak.seStefan Bohacek
in reply to sknob • • •@sknob
"Investors are going to want their millions back with interest"
Exactly, that's why Blacksky, Northsky, Eurosky, and soon likely others, are putting in the effort to make the Atmosphere decentralized.
So that millions who are primarily on Bluesky will have a place to go when it eventually enshittifies, or closes down.
We all know that's coming, and they are getting ready for it.
@_elena
sknob
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@_elena
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to sknob • • •@sknob Right, I addressed that.
"But how we got here, well, the fediverse has been too slow to adapt to people's needs, and sometimes outright hostile to them."
There is the well-documented racism (particularly towards Black people) sexism towards women, hostility towards people with large followings, some of whom rely on social media for income.
There is too much "friendly fire", people not giving each other enough grace and benefit of doubt.
The community is just too toxic sometimes.
@_elena
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@sknob agree and it’s heartbreaking to see instances of racism and microaggressions towards POC on here, which are driving them away.
That being said, I have an account on Bluesky where I mostly lurk to follow discussions about protocols… and I notice that Rudy Fraser - creator of Blacksky - often complains of racism on there… so it can be a problem on Bsky too 💔
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •@_elena Absolutely, racism and mansplaining are big problems in other online communities.
But while Rudy saw an outpouring of support, Black people here get questioned and gaslighted.
Plus you can't put your replies on hold to catch a break when harassment happens on here, so it can really spiral out.
Then you add things that are specific to the fediverse, such as policing around unwritten community rules and expectations.
And also, there is the odd functionality of followers-only-plus-victim-non-follower post visibility, where an attacker can harass you, while nobody else but them and their buddies see the actual posts.
So I still see a big difference.
@sknob
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@_elena @sknob Mekka has an excellent thread on this, by the way, not sure if either of you have already read it.
hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/110…
mekka okereke :verified: (@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)
mekka okereke :verified: (Hachyderm.io)Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@sknob thank you for sharing this. It’s such an important read
@mekkaokereke
sknob
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •@stefan @mekkaokereke