However, as discussed in the thread* below, I disagree with the implied assessment.
Students that are lawfully using their #1a but doing so in a political way ON the (private premises) of campuses are severly disrupting the learning environment for all students. That is not exceptable:
I'm not convinced that the adjective peaceful can appropriately be used to describe the word occupy.
Occupy: take control of (a place, especially a country) by military conquest or settlement: "the region was occupied by Britain during World War I" enter, take control of, and stay in (a building) illegally and often forcibly, especially as a form of protest: "the workers occupied the factory"
That is NOT a student assembly. This is a demostration/mass protest:
1 : a company of persons gathered for deliberation and legislation, worship, or entertainment an assembly of religious leaders 2 capitalized : a legislative body specifically : the lower house of a legislature 3 👉 : a meeting of a student body and usually faculty for administrative, educational, or recreational purposes👈 A school assembly was held in the auditorium.
Not necessarily. If these prayers threatened other people, certainly not (e.g. "Dear God please curse the people of XY b/c...)
However, as the separation of church and state is an iron princilple of Western democracy, I am not sure if a uni campus of the state is the best place fo a mass congregation...
Also, given 9/11, I could imagine that a lot of students would feel unsecure if (theoretically) a big crowd of people started...
@HistoPol @porkroll I think this is more just speaking to your own biases and belief that uppity folks need to be beaten if they don’t know who their betters are.
@HistoPol @jonathankoren @porkroll Allahu akbar just means "God is great". I'm a Christian and have no problem with people saying that, in any language. You're being a weirdo.
OFC there is. - In small groups, or even bigger ones. But it is not the prime objective.
A lot of people will be chatting with others going to a mall (shopping), too. It will still not be a meeting.
What my main point is, is that these protests that have forced some campuses to close down lectures in RL and switch to Pandemic-style online lectures are so disprutive that colleges/unis are well in their right to evict protesters (in large groups) from their campuses...
...#1A of these protesting students ON CAMPUS ends where it infringes other students' (hard-earned) right to study and prepare for a career.
Protestors can continue to excercise their 1A right OFF-prem. Online lectures have provend (during the Pandemic) to be far less effective than the ones in RL.
Mass filming and shouting by large crods is threating to many that have a different opinion and move b/w lectures. There is no "right to intimidate."
...do believe that there now is sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges against the #Netanyahu Regime for #EthnicCleansing and, possibly, #génocide in the #WarInGaza, despite the savage assault by #Hamas October.
...do believe that there now is sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges against the #Netanyahu Regime for #EthnicCleansing and, possibly, #génocide in the #WarInGaza, despite the savage assault by #Hamas October.
...violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”👈
This could constitute the following crimes:
"The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute 👉crimes against humanity👈 and can be assimilated to specific 👉war crimes.👈 Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”
@HistoPol Have you ever heard the phrase "think globally, act locally?"
What are university students to do? They don't work in the bomb factory, they can't sabotage the bombs. They don't work in the state department, they can't fix US foreign policy. They are members of an academic institution.
Ostensibly, discovering the truth is the whole point of academia. Research of history and science. In practice, it turns out the institutions of academia have interests which conflict with this mission (for example, Colombia trying to open a satellite campus in an apartheid state).
How do you suppose these problems get resolved under neoliberal capitalism, where the canonical university becomes an engine for debt generation and indoctrination?
How are we supposed to take concepts like academic freedom seriously when the academics (both students and faculty) are being rounded up by storm troopers?
Yes. Colombia switch to doing lectures over zoom. It is because they are cowards.
Students can boycot--but not "barricade"--the lectures. They can switch schools. The huge number of legacies* can call their "sponsors" (parents, etc.). And they can all protest in pretty much the same way--but off-prem.
This, I say in theory, as I am not at Columbia and have not been at the protests their...
@HistoPol @porkroll Protest aims to shatter the complacency of people who would otherwise blithely skate past injury they would prefer to ignore. That necessarily involves causing inconvenience to the complacent. It can seriously interfere with your daily routine. Welcome to the world beyond the buttons and menus of social media applications.
@fgbjr @porkroll I agree. However, in my personal view, these protests must not make other people's daily routines (e.g. going to the doctor's, to work, to school, etc.) impossible, b/c they have the same rights.
As said before, private property precludes people who are not the owners from excercising the full range of their rights.
For instance, I have long held the opinion that for farmers and truckers bringing their huge machine to these protests, effectively blocking...
...all transit is disproportional and should not be within #1A. Blockading all public transit is not an expression of #1A anymore, IMHO.
Countries such as France and Germany seem to think that the right to protest includes these methods, I sure don't.
The rights of protesters can never be greater than the rights of other citizens going about their daily lives, only equal. Shutting everything down is disproportionate and abusive, IMO.
@HistoPol @porkroll I'm sure that your views are squarely within the mainstream. Unfortunately though, the soothing words of Getting to Yes notwithstanding, conflict resolution isn't always happy families.
@HistoPol @porkroll Fisher & Ury's "Getting to Yes" is the leading text on dispute resolution. It paints a comforting picture of the negotiation dance as one in which "win-win" solutions are always available if the parties will only just be reasonable and dispassionate and think carefully about their bottom lines. Although I once assigned readings from it before I retired from teaching, I'm afraid that it's grounded in a breezy utilitarian optimism that's helped get us into this mess.
"...solutions are always available if the parties will only just be reasonable and dispassionate and think carefully about their bottom lines. "
If you think about the most important(?) conflicts of today, #WarInUkraine, #WarInTheMiddleEast, your concept will still hold true. Ecept that all players (MAYBE) with the exception of the #Ukrainian...
Also, given the massive election interference of other countries, in particular #Russia and #China, but also #India (e.g. in #Canada,), some of the participants will be a kind of agent-provocateurs. They explicitly do NOT want a de-escalation and a reasonable solution. They want to further fuel the fire and polarize Western societies in this #HybridWar.
Statements on today's #police violence against peaceful protesters at the UT #Austin campus. Ryan Alter is on Austin City Council. Jeremi Suri is Mack Brown Distinguished Chair for Leadership in Global Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin and married to Austin City Council member Alison Alter.
I haven't been around during the #VietnamWar. However, what I have read (and watched) about it and what I have been reading and watching now seems to be some kind of a repeat.
Only that the #RedScare* and #McCarthyism back then was completely blown out of proprotion and this time round foreign #ElectionInterference is not being taken seriously enough and the former #Comunist countries are doing a splendid job of further polarizing the West.
I haven't been around during the #VietnamWar. However, what I have read (and watched) about it and what I have been reading and watching now seems to be some kind of a repeat.
Only that the #RedScare* and #McCarthyism back then was completely blown out of proprotion and this time round foreign #ElectionInterference is not being taken seriously enough and the former #Comunist countries are doing a splendid job of further polarizing the West.
It just seems so obvious to me that the anti-Joe Biden violence being ginned up is Kremlin agitprop like so much of the BLM stuff was in 2020 trying to help out the GOP that it's hard for me to keep quiet even though it's certainly not going to make me any friends.
Hopefully enough Americans will choose the boring old policy wonk instead of going for the populist Putinist again this year but it seems about every third social media post is anti-Biden so I'm worried.
As Jonathan chose to drop into this convo, promote his own bias, and then block me, I find it necessary to clarify one thing again:
I have seen no violence in the video we discussing. If at some later point the police/troopers were using violence ("beat") student protesters to arrest them or remove them from campus, that is uncalled for and should be prosecuted.
Furthermore, I think I have made it utterly clear, that everyone...
...enjoys the same rights and is "no-one's" better, which is why I, personally, find protests that considerably infringes the rights of others as not within the law.
@HistoPol @porkroll "Dictionary definition" arguments are the tactics of children and trolls. It's an assembly of students peacefully protesting against a genocide. Your semantic games are morally repugnant. I'm blocking you, and I recommend others do the same.
@HistoPol the TX state Republican thugs, I mean, highway patrol, can enforce a law that's been broken in a lot of ways. This method of pushing and tackling is one of those ways, but the optics are those of a police state. Cops can't resist an opportunity to cause harm when it's legally justifiable.
I'm definitely no friend of #GregAbott's, nor the GOP government of TX. However, if the police asked the protestors on behalf of the uni administration to leave the campus and the demonstrators did not comply, what would you suggest, in particular, if it were your property?
I am not in TX, so any long-distance solution is difficult, if not impossible.
If I were responsible for the the uni admin, I'd try to talk with the leaders of the protests to find a compromise. In any event, most of the protesters will want to graduate from the UT at some point, whereas the uni will not be able to dismiss this huge amount of (gifted) students. Unrest will not solve the problem either. The sooner the parties start talking reasonably with each other, the better.
In a representative democracy, like the #US, and unlike #Switzerland, you have empowered the TX government to make the decisions for you until the next election. You don't like what's going on (and I'm NOT saying I do!!!) you need to vote them out.
@HistoPol dude or dudette, we already been trying to vote them out. For decades. I've been here for 50 years and I'm ready to leave #Texas #gerrymandered
What I said last year about #FL, and also about #TX (#GOPHandmaidsTale) still holds true: if you have female family members, you'd better leave / have left...once the #Elections2024 results are known at the latest.
I agree. Hate to admit it, but some states might be lost to the #RepublicOfGilead.
@flexghost
If you have made plans for leaving the #DeathSantis Sector, now is the time to execute them, if you have female family members, in particular of childbearing age.
If you have not, you'd better get moving.
Hm, maybe being "generally annoyed" makes reading a bit harder at times. ;)
NO, what I'm saying is that your right to protest ON CAMPUS is not more important than your fellow students right to study in a normal environment and without intimidations by protest groups.
What you (legally) do OFF campus is completely up to you.
@HistoPol Protests are supposed to be disruptive. If they aren't disruptive, they don't get any coverage.
There is a literal genocide happening. Sorry if that is an inconvenience. I think that Martin Luther King's words about "white moderates" apply here (regardless of race)
> I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice ...
@HistoPol ...Yes, the students aren't able to shut the atrocities happening in the world out and go on ignoring how states' power is only maintained by violence against those trying to hold them accountable, nor how colonialism and fascism always need to be called out lest they result in genocide. Such a shame their blind climbing of the corporate ladder - before their careers have even started! - has been interrupted by facing humanity. The horror.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Dr. Lucky Tran :verified: • • •Ugh. Powerful anti-PR* for the #UniversityOfTexas, I agree.
However, as discussed in the thread* below, I disagree with the implied assessment.
Students that are lawfully using their #1a but doing so in a political way ON the (private premises) of campuses are severly disrupting the learning environment for all students. That is not exceptable:
https://mstdn.social/@GreenFire/112328323974586505
*
https://med-mastodon.com/@luckytran/112328481737052690
Kevin Leecaster
2024-04-24 21:30:01
PorkrollPosadist
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to PorkrollPosadist • • •@porkroll
That is NOT a student assembly. This is a demostration/mass protest:
1
: a company of persons gathered for deliberation and legislation, worship, or entertainment
an assembly of religious leaders
2
capitalized : a legislative body
specifically : the lower house of a legislature
3
👉 : a meeting of a student body and usually faculty for administrative, educational, or recreational purposes👈
A school assembly was held in the auditorium.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assembly
@luckytran
Definition of assembly
Merriam-Webster Dictionaryjonathankoren
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to jonathankoren • • •@jonathankoren
(1/2)
Not necessarily. If these prayers threatened other people, certainly not (e.g. "Dear God please curse the people of XY b/c...)
However, as the separation of church and state is an iron princilple of Western democracy, I am not sure if a uni campus of the state is the best place fo a mass congregation...
Also, given 9/11, I could imagine that a lot of students would feel unsecure if (theoretically) a big crowd of people started...
@porkroll @luckytran
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@jonathankoren @porkroll
(2/2)
..shouting "الله أَكْبَر Allahu akbar" in unison.
On the other hand, if the campus were that of an Islamic university, that might be appropriate.
It all depends on the circumstances, I guess.
//
jonathankoren
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •Allahu akbar just means "God is great". I'm a Christian and have no problem with people saying that, in any language. You're being a weirdo.
PorkrollPosadist
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to PorkrollPosadist • • •@porkroll
OFC there is. - In small groups, or even bigger ones.
But it is not the prime objective.
A lot of people will be chatting with others going to a mall (shopping), too. It will still not be a meeting.
What my main point is, is that these protests that have forced some campuses to close down lectures in RL and switch to Pandemic-style online lectures are so disprutive that colleges/unis are well in their right to evict protesters (in large groups) from their campuses...
@luckytran
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@porkroll
(2/3)
...#1A of these protesting students ON CAMPUS ends where it infringes other students' (hard-earned) right to study and prepare for a career.
Protestors can continue to excercise their 1A right OFF-prem. Online lectures have provend (during the Pandemic) to be far less effective than the ones in RL.
Mass filming and shouting by large crods is threating to many that have a different opinion and move b/w lectures. There is no "right to intimidate."
That said, I...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@porkroll
(3/3)
...do believe that there now is sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges against the #Netanyahu Regime for #EthnicCleansing and, possibly, #génocide
in the #WarInGaza, despite the savage assault by #Hamas October.
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111965108855551947
//
@porkroll
(3/3)
...do believe that there now is sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges against the #Netanyahu Regime for #EthnicCleansing and, possibly, #génocide
in the #WarInGaza, despite the savage assault by #Hamas October.
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111965108855551947
//
HistoPol (#HP)
2024-02-20 17:59:38
PorkrollPosadist
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@HistoPol Have you ever heard the phrase "think globally, act locally?"
What are university students to do? They don't work in the bomb factory, they can't sabotage the bombs. They don't work in the state department, they can't fix US foreign policy. They are members of an academic institution.
Ostensibly, discovering the truth is the whole point of academia. Research of history and science. In practice, it turns out the institutions of academia have interests which conflict with this mission (for example, Colombia trying to open a satellite campus in an apartheid state).
How do you suppose these problems get resolved under neoliberal capitalism, where the canonical university becomes an engine for debt generation and indoctrination?
How are we supposed to take concepts like academic freedom seriously when the academics (both students and faculty) are being rounded up by storm troopers?
Yes. Colombia switch to doing lectures over zoom. It is because they are cowards.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to PorkrollPosadist • • •@porkroll
"phrase "think globally, act locally?""
(1/2)
OFC, that is an old phrase in marketing.
Students can boycot--but not "barricade"--the lectures. They can switch schools. The huge number of legacies* can call their "sponsors" (parents, etc.).
And they can all protest in pretty much the same way--but off-prem.
This, I say in theory, as I am not at Columbia and have not been at the protests their...
*
https://archive.is/nTTZj
@luckytran
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@porkroll
(2/2)
...
It is for a good reasons that eventually courts decide what is right and what is illegal. It is a case-by-case decision.
//
PorkrollPosadist
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to PorkrollPosadist • • •@porkroll
THAT and the other GOP appointees are the real problem.
@luckytran
Frank Bennett
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
I agree. However, in my personal view, these protests must not make other people's daily routines (e.g. going to the doctor's, to work, to school, etc.) impossible, b/c they have the same rights.
As said before, private property precludes people who are not the owners from excercising the full range of their rights.
For instance, I have long held the opinion that for farmers and truckers bringing their huge machine to these protests, effectively blocking...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
(2/2)
...all transit is disproportional and should not be within #1A. Blockading all public transit is not an expression of #1A anymore, IMHO.
Countries such as France and Germany seem to think that the right to protest includes these methods, I sure don't.
The rights of protesters can never be greater than the rights of other citizens going about their daily lives, only equal. Shutting everything down is disproportionate and abusive, IMO.
//
Frank Bennett
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •@fgbjr
I am not sure I am getting the meaning of your final sentence...?
Conflict resolution, in particular in such a polarized environment, is hardly "happy families" ever, I guess.
@porkroll @luckytran
Frank Bennett
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •@fgbjr
#GettingToYes #DisputeResolution
(1/2)
Ah, I see. Didn't know the book.
I agree, IF the underlying assumption holds true:
"...solutions are always available if the parties will only just be reasonable and dispassionate and think carefully about their bottom lines. "
If you think about the most important(?) conflicts of today, #WarInUkraine, #WarInTheMiddleEast, your concept will still hold true. Ecept that all players (MAYBE) with the exception of the #Ukrainian...
@porkroll
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
#GettingToYes #DisputeResolution
(2/3)
...government, will NOT fulfill your assumptions.
Also, given the massive election interference of other countries, in particular #Russia and #China, but also #India (e.g. in #Canada,), some of the participants will be a kind of agent-provocateurs. They explicitly do NOT want a de-escalation and a reasonable solution. They want to further fuel the fire and polarize Western societies in this #HybridWar.
So, the books methods are...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
#GettingToYes #DisputeResolution
(3/3)
...not necessarily wrong or obsolete, but they are simpliy not aplicable because the underlying assumption do not apply.
//
Frank Bennett
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
I get your point. I also find that quite undemocratic, in particular regarding the UT #Austin campus.
https://federate.social/@oconnell/112328686185061204
Mx. Kit O'Connell—Hire me!
2024-04-24 23:02:08
Frank Bennett
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •I haven't been around during the #VietnamWar. However, what I have read (and watched) about it and what I have been reading and watching now seems to be some kind of a repeat.
Only that the #RedScare* and #McCarthyism back then was completely blown out of proprotion and this time round foreign #ElectionInterference is not being taken seriously enough and the former #Comunist countries are doing a splendid job of further polarizing the West.
https://mstdn.social/@GreenFire/112329113066924494
*Second Red Scare
I haven't been around during the #VietnamWar. However, what I have read (and watched) about it and what I have been reading and watching now seems to be some kind of a repeat.
Only that the #RedScare* and #McCarthyism back then was completely blown out of proprotion and this time round foreign #ElectionInterference is not being taken seriously enough and the former #Comunist countries are doing a splendid job of further polarizing the West.
https://mstdn.social/@GreenFire/112329113066924494
*Second Red Scare
Kevin Leecaster
2024-04-25 00:50:41
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to Frank Bennett • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
(1/2)
As Jonathan chose to drop into this convo, promote his own bias, and then block me, I find it necessary to clarify one thing again:
I have seen no violence in the video we discussing. If at some later point the police/troopers were using violence ("beat") student protesters to arrest them or remove them from campus, that is uncalled for and should be prosecuted.
Furthermore, I think I have made it utterly clear, that everyone...
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@fgbjr @porkroll
(2/2)
...enjoys the same rights and is "no-one's" better, which is why I, personally, find protests that considerably infringes the rights of others as not within the law.
//
drew batchelor
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •dark was the night 🌚
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to dark was the night 🌚 • • •@djnst
I'm definitely no friend of #GregAbott's, nor the GOP government of TX.
However, if the police asked the protestors on behalf of the uni administration to leave the campus and the demonstrators did not comply, what would you suggest, in particular, if it were your property?
dark was the night 🌚
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@HistoPol the UT campus is kinda my property, since I'm a citizen of the state. I'm Ok either way.
They are protesting bullying, and the official response is more bullying.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to dark was the night 🌚 • • •@djnst
I am not in TX, so any long-distance solution is difficult, if not impossible.
If I were responsible for the the uni admin, I'd try to talk with the leaders of the protests to find a compromise. In any event, most of the protesters will want to graduate from the UT at some point, whereas the uni will not be able to dismiss this huge amount of (gifted) students. Unrest will not solve the problem either. The sooner the parties start talking reasonably with each other, the better.
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@djnst
Just as a side note:
In a representative democracy, like the #US, and unlike #Switzerland, you have empowered the TX government to make the decisions for you until the next election. You don't like what's going on (and I'm NOT saying I do!!!) you need to vote them out.
#VoteBlue
dark was the night 🌚
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to dark was the night 🌚 • • •@djnst
What I said last year about #FL, and also about #TX (#GOPHandmaidsTale) still holds true: if you have female family members, you'd better leave / have left...once the #Elections2024 results are known at the latest.
I agree. Hate to admit it, but some states might be lost to the #RepublicOfGilead.
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/109990616446605529
HistoPol (#HP) (@HistoPol@mastodon.social)
MastodonGenerallyAnnoyed
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to GenerallyAnnoyed • • •@GenerallyAnnoyed
Hm, maybe being "generally annoyed" makes reading a bit harder at times. ;)
NO, what I'm saying is that your right to protest ON CAMPUS is not more important than your fellow students right to study in a normal environment and without intimidations by protest groups.
What you (legally) do OFF campus is completely up to you.
@djnst
HistoPol (#HP)
in reply to GenerallyAnnoyed • • •@GenerallyAnnoyed
ALSO:
A repeat of disrepectful language will get you reported and blocked.
We don't know each other and I have not accosted you in any way.
First and final warning.
Mark M. Evans
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •@HistoPol Protests are supposed to be disruptive. If they aren't disruptive, they don't get any coverage.
There is a literal genocide happening. Sorry if that is an inconvenience. I think that Martin Luther King's words about "white moderates" apply here (regardless of race)
> I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice ...
WovenTales
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) • • •