After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile. No assumptions, no default settings.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.
Fluffy
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •julian
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •Re: After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile.
Fedilab Apps
in reply to julian • • •We appreciate that, but the feedback raised valid points. The opt-in approach is the right move. It may grow slower, but every user in the index will be there by conscious choice. That's a stronger foundation to build on.
Bredroll
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •nicolaottomano
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •Well, I read the whole thread. It was a matter of 2-3 people which were more a PITA than giving useful advice.
In my opinion if HolosIndex will be more strict than it already was, since it was very strict in what to index, it will be not useful, since almost no one is going to add #HolosIndex tag and it is not even an ActivityPub standard.
@julian
Fedilab Apps
in reply to nicolaottomano • • •We actually received links to conversations where the project was being discussed quite aggressively beyond what was visible here. We still believe our approach was ethical, but it didn't account for users not understanding their own default settings. Of course, the same settings used by real scrapers like Google, but that's another debate :)
@julian
julian
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •Re: After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile.
@apps@toot.fedilab.app that's exactly it. You're not responsible for others not understanding that when they post publicly, their post is public.
@nicolaottomano@mastodon.uno
Tom Casavant
in reply to julian • • •@julian I do think there's a bigger issue here, if a significant number of users are not understanding discoverability settings then we have to figure out a way to explain that functionality better.
If we fall back to every ActivityPub app/server having a unique discoverability configuration then we will have a situation where nobody understands the settings.
@apps @nicolaottomano
Fedilab Apps
in reply to Tom Casavant • • •That's exactly the point we raised. There's a complete misunderstanding: people think they're creating an account in a safe space, but default settings are already exposing them to big tech. We just made it visible by playing by the rules. And unlike big tech, our data stayed within the Fediverse with a far more respectful approach.
@julian @nicolaottomano
Ulf Rompe
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •Stu
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •Rather than a hashtag, is it possible to do this based on users following a particular account? Like the Bluesky bridge.
I don't know any of the technical particulars, so unsure if this is a feasible alternative. Feels like it would have less friction, though.
Fedilab Apps
in reply to Stu • • •Our previous mechanism was actually more thorough than that. Before following or indexing anyone, we checked multiple signals: indexable enabled, account not locked, no #nobot in bio. But since indexable is enabled by default when you create an account, we were closer to opt-out than opt-in. That's why we're rethinking the approach with explicit opt-in.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •As experienced client devs, I assume you have the infrastructure for OAuth already in place? I'd rather go to your website and authenticate my Mastodon account there than have a hashtag in my bio... the Tootfinder hashtag kinda annoys me every time I see it. š
That aside, I believe Mastodon is going to introduce some kind of profile signal for willingness to appear in starter packs, might be worth additionally keeping an eye on whatever happens there. github.com/mastodon/featured_cā¦
GitHub - mastodon/featured_collections: Thinking about federated Starter Packs
GitHubFedilab Apps
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •OAuth would mean implementing specific integrations for each Fediverse software, and some don't even support it. The bio hashtag works universally across any ActivityPub implementation without any server-side dependency.
You can also opt in via mention if you don't want the hashtag visible in your bio.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •FinchHaven sfba
in reply to Fedilab Apps • • •It seems this issue has resurrected, or resumed
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and participates in) the agent's action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot participate in) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE AGENT in advance
Here is one of the oldest prior discussions I participated in on Github with Ryan (snarfed) Barrett re: bridgy-fed back starting in February of 2024
Read all of it; it's very long
Here: github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/ā¦
With that, I'm out
Y'all have fun, eh?
#HolosDiscover #HolosIndex #Mastodon #Fediverse #ActivityPub
Opt in/out prompt
WisTex (GitHub)